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Forums - Politics Discussion - Russia and Ukraine flashpoint

SecondWar said:
crissindahouse said:

I hope chancellor Scholz realizes that Ukrainian soldiers need training as well before they can use the Western tanks and that Russia is already on a little upswing in some areas so that even yesterday was a little too late to agree to tank deliveries. We complained about Switzerland not allowing us to send Swiss-made ammunition for Gepards to Ukraine but then he does this shit with the Leopards...

Wasn’t it reported that the vast majority of Germany’s Leopard tanks are essentially derelict and it would take about a year to get sufficient number into a condition suitable to be deployed in combat?

Even so, it does make me question why Germany kelt them in that condition. If there was a scenario where they required at short notice to fend off an invasion of German territory they would be as good as useless. And if the excuse if they were held back until such a time that ‘we had advance warning then we could get them into fighting order’, well shouldn’t that time be now?

Issue is countries need Germany's approval to send theirs, I don't know about the state of Germany's but since a number of countries have said they're willing to send theirs, it may not matter too much how many Germany specifically is able to provide.

Plus this is from Rheinmetall alone.

Ukraine has only been asking for around 300 tanks, I'm assuming it was more an excuse to not send the tanks.

Jordan has recently retired its fleet of around 400 British Challenger 1 tanks, I wish UK just purchased them back off Jordan and send them to Ukraine if they are still in good condition. But I don't know how ideal it is to send so many different kinds of tanks, different logistics and maintenance.



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SecondWar said:
crissindahouse said:

I hope chancellor Scholz realizes that Ukrainian soldiers need training as well before they can use the Western tanks and that Russia is already on a little upswing in some areas so that even yesterday was a little too late to agree to tank deliveries. We complained about Switzerland not allowing us to send Swiss-made ammunition for Gepards to Ukraine but then he does this shit with the Leopards...

Wasn’t it reported that the vast majority of Germany’s Leopard tanks are essentially derelict and it would take about a year to get sufficient number into a condition suitable to be deployed in combat?

Even so, it does make me question why Germany kelt them in that condition. If there was a scenario where they required at short notice to fend off an invasion of German territory they would be as good as useless. And if the excuse if they were held back until such a time that ‘we had advance warning then we could get them into fighting order’, well shouldn’t that time be now?

There are many retired Leopard 2s in stock which aren't ready yet but Germany has also some hundred modern versions of Leopard 2s which are ready but not supposed to be send since they are part of the own forces. The retired ones are probably older Leopard 2 used for parts or to get upgraded to better versions. And when they talk about sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine it's about those older versions not used anymore from Germany's forces. Not the Leopard 2A7s

But like Ryuu said, it's not only about Germany sending tanks (and they could have started to repair those in stock months ago already just in case) but about allowing other countries to send theirs. 



What often annoys me is that it's always about "we can't send it yet because this or that is damaged and not in 100% condition". I mean, sure, not ideal to send this equipment but they probably fight in Ukraine with tanks or other equipment which is in a much much worse condition as some of the stuff we have in stock. There might be some work to be done but I'm sure there is plenty in stock which could be battle ready against Russian tanks in a few weeks.



We the Defence Ministers of Estonia, the United Kingdom, Poland, Latvia and Lithuania; and the representatives of Denmark, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and Slovakia met today, 19 January, to reaffirm our continued determination and resolve to supporting Ukraine in their heroic resistance against the illegal and unprovoked Russian aggression. We condemn Russia’s attacks designed to terrorise Ukraine’s people, including intentional attacks against the civilian population and civilian infrastructure which may constitute war crimes. We reject Russia’s ongoing violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, and its illegal claims to have annexed Ukrainian territory.

We recognise that equipping Ukraine to push Russia out of its territory is as important as equipping them to defend what they already have. Together we will continue supporting Ukraine to move from resisting to expelling Russian forces from Ukrainian soil. By bringing together Allies and partners, we are ensuring the surge of global military support is as strategic and coordinated as possible. The new level of required combat power is only achieved by combinations of main battle tank squadrons, beneath air and missile defence, operating alongside divisional artillery groups, and further deep precision fires enabling targeting of Russian logistics and command nodes in occupied territory.

Therefore, we commit to collectively pursuing delivery of an unprecedented set of donations including main battle tanks, heavy artillery, air defence, ammunition, and infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine’s defence. This substantial assistance to Ukraine comes from our own national stocks, and resources illustrating the mutual understanding of the severity of the situation and our commitment to urgently increase and accelerate support for Ukraine. Having made this “Tallinn Pledge”, we shall head to the Ukraine Defence Group meeting in Ramstein tomorrow 20 January and urge other Allies and partners to follow suit and contribute their own planned packages of support as soon as possible to ensure a Ukrainian battlefield victory in 2023.

Joint Statement – The Tallinn Pledge - GOV.UK

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 19 January 2023

Ryuu96 said:
SecondWar said:

Wasn’t it reported that the vast majority of Germany’s Leopard tanks are essentially derelict and it would take about a year to get sufficient number into a condition suitable to be deployed in combat?

Even so, it does make me question why Germany kelt them in that condition. If there was a scenario where they required at short notice to fend off an invasion of German territory they would be as good as useless. And if the excuse if they were held back until such a time that ‘we had advance warning then we could get them into fighting order’, well shouldn’t that time be now?

Issue is countries need Germany's approval to send theirs, I don't know about the state of Germany's but since a number of countries have said they're willing to send theirs, it may not matter too much how many Germany specifically is able to provide.

Plus this is from Rheinmetall alone.

Ukraine has only been asking for around 300 tanks, I'm assuming it was more an excuse to not send the tanks.

Jordan has recently retired its fleet of around 400 British Challenger 1 tanks, I wish UK just purchased them back off Jordan and send them to Ukraine if they are still in good condition. But I don't know how ideal it is to send so many different kinds of tanks, different logistics and maintenance.

That tweet is wrong.

Rheinmetall could send 20 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks this year and another 80 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks in 20 months. Additionally they talk about buying and upgrading some Challenger 1 tanks from Oman.



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Barozi said:
Ryuu96 said:

Issue is countries need Germany's approval to send theirs, I don't know about the state of Germany's but since a number of countries have said they're willing to send theirs, it may not matter too much how many Germany specifically is able to provide.

Plus this is from Rheinmetall alone.

Ukraine has only been asking for around 300 tanks, I'm assuming it was more an excuse to not send the tanks.

Jordan has recently retired its fleet of around 400 British Challenger 1 tanks, I wish UK just purchased them back off Jordan and send them to Ukraine if they are still in good condition. But I don't know how ideal it is to send so many different kinds of tanks, different logistics and maintenance.

That tweet is wrong.

Rheinmetall could send 20 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks this year and another 80 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks in 20 months. Additionally they talk about buying and upgrading some Challenger 1 tanks from Oman.

Well...That timeline is wrong but is that 20 upgraded Leopard 1's this year in addition to 80 upgraded Leopard 1's spread across 20 months? Which would work out to about 4 Leopard 1 tanks per month on average, plus the double digits from Oman...They also mention about being able to send Leopard 2's but I can't see them mentioning how many.

Still, they can't even start without permission, Ukraine is only asking for 300 tanks so I think even this would be a decent start, as it's only one company, not to mention all the countries who want to send their Leopard's to Ukraine as well. Didn't realise Oman had double digits of Challenger 1's but I don't know why they wouldn't buy from Jordan instead since they have hundreds and are phasing them out now.

Do both Krauss and Rheinmetall manufacture Leopards? Can't Krauss send some as well?

Last edited by Ryuu96 - on 19 January 2023

Just send a few and keep them in Lviv to push Germany to approve Leopards, Lol.



Ryuu96 said:
Barozi said:

That tweet is wrong.

Rheinmetall could send 20 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks this year and another 80 upgraded Leopard 1 tanks in 20 months. Additionally they talk about buying and upgrading some Challenger 1 tanks from Oman.

Well...That timeline is wrong but is that 20 upgraded Leopard 1's this year in addition to 80 upgraded Leopard 1's spread across 20 months? Which would work out to about 4 Leopard 1 tanks per month on average, plus the double digits from Oman...They also mention about being able to send Leopard 2's but I can't see them mentioning how many.

Still, they can't even start without permission, Ukraine is only asking for 300 tanks so I think even this would be a decent start, as it's only one company, not to mention all the countries who want to send their Leopard's to Ukraine as well. Didn't realise Oman had double digits of Challenger 1's but I don't know why they wouldn't buy from Jordan instead since they have hundreds and are phasing them out now.

Do both Krauss and Rheinmetall manufacture Leopards? Can't Krauss send some as well?

They still have 22 (outdated or outright broken?) Leopard 2 tanks in stock but can only send 10-15 this year.



Omfg.

America just give them fucking ATACMS. Germany just fucking approve Leopard's.

Goddamn.



Ryuu96 said:

Noice.

What's more, those are Swedish CV-90, so the CV-9040 version with the 40mm Bofors gun. That version was exclusive for the Swedish Army, export versions had to do with a 30 or 35mm Bushmaster gun (CV-9030 and CV-9035 respectively), which was far inferior to what the Bofors can do.