By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - A reactionary post, I guess.

Shadow1980 said:

A lot.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I wish I could say that I felt like properly responding to it all, but honestly to do so would just be to repeat points that I've already made earlier on this thread in response to JWeinCom and Nemo, so I will simply point you to those remarks, which should suffice to give you my fuller perspective and more precise position on the whole issue of this virus and of what I've felt at different points in time was the appropriate response thereto, and also why there is, if anything, in my view a strong moral case for ending Covid restrictions at this point.

Response to Nemo. <-- Includes detailed position.

(Main) response to JWeinCom. <-- Includes moral case for ending Covid restrictions at this point in time. That's right, there's more than my personal convenience (and sanity) at stake here. A lot more.

Together, these summarize my position much better than I can repeat. It took me an eternity to write them out too, so I'd rather not try and repeat myself more eloquently here.

I will say this though: like all my critics here invariably, you rely on over-simplifying dissent. Here you consistently brand everyone who supports the Convoys as a conservative rightist who clearly voted for Trump twice (if American), supported the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol, and wants humanity to go extinct. That's just where you go wrong. Demonizing everyone who disagrees with you, painting all as the same. You don't understand me or my position at all. It's a lot more nuanced than that. Seriously, if I have to hear just one more time how supposedly the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol is my fault because I'm tired of masking months after my third vaccination and am happy that I probably soon will no longer have to thanks realistically in large part to this Canadian movement, I think I'm going to have to scream and hit something. Seriously. Just drop that argument please, everyone who's using it. It's unbelievably stupid and offensive and anyone who knows me knows better.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 17 February 2022

Around the Network
Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:

Can you really call it so outlandish when swastikas and other neo-nazi symbols have literally been displayed at the Convoy? It seems like he is just accurately describing reality to me.

Okay well then by this logic I guess we have to also conclude that the Occupy Wall Street movement of 2011, participated in by over a million Americans, was also a kind of sustained neo-Nazi organizing rally because there were opportunistic swastika-brandishing Nazis there too on occasion to explain to the rest of us with their crappy, moronic signs how supposedly the Jews control all the banks and yadda yadda rest of the bullshit stereotypes that such know-nothing idiots still use and rely on. That matter was widely publicized by both Fox News and CNN at the time as proof that the million plus people protesting the recent destruction of the world economy by financial aristocrats through organized, systematic fraud that they weren't being prosecuted for were all a bunch of racist, xenophobic bigots who had to be shut down and shut up. Sound like a fair characterization?

Or, by the same token, perhaps the racial justice protests that swept the nation after George Floyd's murder in late spring and summer of 2020, led primarily by the Black Lives Matter movement and joined by millions of Americans and at least initially supported by more than 60% of the U.S. population, were actually about ending all law enforcement in the country because there were small fringe groups using the slogan "Abolish the Police" at some of these events? Does that seem like a fair characterization of the entire movement, or of the movement overall, to you? Were 62% of Americans actually anarchists?

The Freedom Convoy is a Canadian movement and Canada and Quebec together have one-tenth as many people as the United States, so their protests tend to be smaller in scale, but nevertheless hundreds of thousands and Canadians and Quebecers have participated in the Freedom Convoys and surveys suggest that it's enjoyed the support of about half the population of Canada and Quebec. Would you say that half the population of Canada and Quebec consists of swastika-brandishing Nazis? No? Okay then!

The guilt-by-association logic pseudo-logic here is bullshit and you know it. You're not that dumb. That's just what people recourse to when they'd rather not bother confronting the actual positions represented by a movement's mainstream because doing so could prove a lot tougher. Neo-Nazi and neo-Confederate opportunists have composed only a tiny fringe section of the Freedom Convoy participants and I've observed that they're often forced out once the recognizable insignia comes out, much like at Occupy encampments, because nobody who isn't one of those loons actually wants to be associated with them.

Matter-of-factly, I find it a remarkable exercise in gaslighting that the Canadian Prime Minister accuses his critics of supporting the formation of a police state in Canada by virtue of opposing the one he's actually, in fact, creating right now in real life!

You seem to imply that I said/meant a lot of things that I didn't say. Let me make what I mean clear: You could very well argue that guilt-by-association can often be a poor judge. What you can't argue is that the association is very much real. These individuals are literally standing beside neo-nazis, so don't act like Trudeau is off base by calling it out. 

As for whether the association between extremist groups and opinions, and the convoy is as shallow as you imply, it certainly doesn't seem like it to me. I mean for one, the Ottawa Police set up a hotline to deal with the hundreds of hate crime reports that have poured in. Then, you have the open displays of support for nazis, extremist groups (eg. Three Percenters) and conspiracy groups (eg. Q). Finally, you have several of the most prominent figures in the convoy like organizer Pat King who supports the "great replacement"/"white genocide" white nationalist talking point and makes comments about how the jews control the world.

The way I see, no matter how you slice it, you are going to be left with a lot of alt-right bullshit and that shouldn't surprise you, as this convoy is nakedly about airing the grievances of the alt-right. 



sundin13 said:
Jaicee said:

Okay well then by this logic I guess we have to also conclude that the Occupy Wall Street movement of 2011, participated in by over a million Americans, was also a kind of sustained neo-Nazi organizing rally because there were opportunistic swastika-brandishing Nazis there too on occasion to explain to the rest of us with their crappy, moronic signs how supposedly the Jews control all the banks and yadda yadda rest of the bullshit stereotypes that such know-nothing idiots still use and rely on. That matter was widely publicized by both Fox News and CNN at the time as proof that the million plus people protesting the recent destruction of the world economy by financial aristocrats through organized, systematic fraud that they weren't being prosecuted for were all a bunch of racist, xenophobic bigots who had to be shut down and shut up. Sound like a fair characterization?

Or, by the same token, perhaps the racial justice protests that swept the nation after George Floyd's murder in late spring and summer of 2020, led primarily by the Black Lives Matter movement and joined by millions of Americans and at least initially supported by more than 60% of the U.S. population, were actually about ending all law enforcement in the country because there were small fringe groups using the slogan "Abolish the Police" at some of these events? Does that seem like a fair characterization of the entire movement, or of the movement overall, to you? Were 62% of Americans actually anarchists?

The Freedom Convoy is a Canadian movement and Canada and Quebec together have one-tenth as many people as the United States, so their protests tend to be smaller in scale, but nevertheless hundreds of thousands and Canadians and Quebecers have participated in the Freedom Convoys and surveys suggest that it's enjoyed the support of about half the population of Canada and Quebec. Would you say that half the population of Canada and Quebec consists of swastika-brandishing Nazis? No? Okay then!

The guilt-by-association logic pseudo-logic here is bullshit and you know it. You're not that dumb. That's just what people recourse to when they'd rather not bother confronting the actual positions represented by a movement's mainstream because doing so could prove a lot tougher. Neo-Nazi and neo-Confederate opportunists have composed only a tiny fringe section of the Freedom Convoy participants and I've observed that they're often forced out once the recognizable insignia comes out, much like at Occupy encampments, because nobody who isn't one of those loons actually wants to be associated with them.

Matter-of-factly, I find it a remarkable exercise in gaslighting that the Canadian Prime Minister accuses his critics of supporting the formation of a police state in Canada by virtue of opposing the one he's actually, in fact, creating right now in real life!

You seem to imply that I said/meant a lot of things that I didn't say. Let me make what I mean clear: You could very well argue that guilt-by-association can often be a poor judge. What you can't argue is that the association is very much real. These individuals are literally standing beside neo-nazis, so don't act like Trudeau is off base by calling it out. 

As for whether the association between extremist groups and opinions, and the convoy is as shallow as you imply, it certainly doesn't seem like it to me. I mean for one, the Ottawa Police set up a hotline to deal with the hundreds of hate crime reports that have poured in. Then, you have the open displays of support for nazis, extremist groups (eg. Three Percenters) and conspiracy groups (eg. Q). Finally, you have several of the most prominent figures in the convoy like organizer Pat King who supports the "great replacement"/"white genocide" white nationalist talking point and makes comments about how the jews control the world.

The way I see, no matter how you slice it, you are going to be left with a lot of alt-right bullshit and that shouldn't surprise you, as this convoy is nakedly about airing the grievances of the alt-right. 

I would still say that the big fish here is about freedom and the nazi bullshit is just little remora fish clinging on there and trying to make use of the situation. Again, there's nuance and the mainstream media on either side are conveniently obscuring that. Tribalism and hyperbole as per usual.

Also, the term alt-right is a slippery one nowadays. It seems to mean anybody that doesn't echo the far left talking points, so basically the vast majority of any given population. Maybe just say far right or extreme right, when talking about nazis or supremacists or that kind of fringe crap. I don't even know whether that shit is really left or right at all, just crazy.



sundin13 said:

You seem to imply that I said/meant a lot of things that I didn't say. Let me make what I mean clear: You could very well argue that guilt-by-association can often be a poor judge. What you can't argue is that the association is very much real. These individuals are literally standing beside neo-nazis, so don't act like Trudeau is off base by calling it out. 

*sighs*

You know better than this. Both Trudeau and you are being more than a little disingenuous. What he, and you, are attempting to do is paint the many millions of Canadians and Quebecers who have supported this movement as literal fucking Nazis for opposing the indefinite continuation of Covid restrictions. It's retarded and you know it. It's even more retarded that you actually buy into Trudeau's suggestion that people like the Jewish descendants of Holocaust survivors, the grandchildren of WW2 veterans who died fighting the actual German Nazis during World War II, etc. etc. are Nazis because they're...the ones calling for more personal freedoms here and opposing the transformation of Canada into something very much akin to a police state.

You know why you have to do that? You know why you and the rest of the left have to idiotically resort to painting everyone who disagrees with you on anything as a neo-Nazi? Because you can't actually defend your positions on the merits.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 18 February 2022

padib said:

Did you know that Canada stole 10M$ in donations sent to the convoy via gofundme and gosendgo?

Yep. Heard about that. Apparently if these funding platforms disapprove of your goals, they can just take your money and not give it back or give it to a different cause of their choosing! Facebook and other social media groups associated with the Convoys were shut down early on likewise. There has been more than a little censorship and rewriting of the narrative going on here.



Around the Network

Why is for some people needing to wear a mask an issue?
And why is it always either left or right in the US? A two party system like that is not even a real democracy.



padib said:


Did you know that Canada stole 10M$ in donations sent to the convoy via gofundme and gosendgo? And they are trying to control everything and now called upon an emergency act, ready to imprison Canadians for protesting, and taking their children away jailing parents for taking their kids with them? They are absolutely bonkers and lost their minds, we just don't want them in power anymore.

Was neither done by Canada, nor was it stolen. 

Jaicee said:

Yep. Heard about that. Apparently if these funding platforms disapprove of your goals, they can just take your money and not give it back or give it to a different cause of their choosing! Facebook and other social media groups associated with the Convoys were shut down early on likewise. There has been more than a little censorship and rewriting of the narrative going on here.

This is false.

>GoFundMe initially said it would give supporters of the now-defunct campaign, which raised nearly $8 million, until February 19 to request refunds. It also said it would direct any remaining donations to "credible and established charities chosen by the Freedom Convoy 2022 organizers and verified by GoFundMe."

But the company later reversed course, saying it would automatically refund campaign supporters in order to simplify the process. Donors can expect refunds within 10 business days, according to GoFundMe.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gofundme-freedom-convoy-under-investigation-for-blocking-donations-canadian-truckers/

Jaicee said:




Look at all those divided opinions! Those are human beings too. I don't see how one can look at that and feel like the wrong decision was made here.

97% of American teachers report that their students have experienced learning loss. From May 2020 to April 2021, the U.S. recorded over 100,000 drug overdose deaths, a 28.5% increase from the 78,000 deaths that were recorded in the previous 12-month period, according to CDC data, which I believe is also an all-time record. Domestic violence jumped 8.1% during the lockdown period in 2020, which saw many women in particular effectively trapped at home with abusive partners. Also, we shut the economy down, displacing at least 15% of our workforce and exacerbating supply chain disruptions in the process, in turn partly yielding the current 40-year high price inflation rate! (Another part of that is corporate price gouging, but that is another issue for another time.) The most worrisome human cost though has been the emergence of a major mental health crisis resulting from both the pandemic itself but considerably exacerbated by related restrictions on life. (Also, I can't recommend that last article enough. The New York Times really is the best...when they want to be.) That, the mental health crisis, is the big one in my opinion, as its victims are far more numerous than those of the coronavirus itself and include me. People cannot live on high alert for years and remain unscathed. I think it would just be nice to see topics other than Covid in the news more often, frankly. That would help people's mental well-being. And no, it's not "just" a mask. It's a symbol, and a constant reminder, of a traumatizing era that I very much need to be in the past, speaking of which. If to add just one more statistic to all this that helps to concentrate the magnitude of the current mental health crisis facing this country, nay the world, suicide attempts by American teenage girls have risen 50% since the pandemic began.

Anyway, you act like that's all nothing; as though these measures stopped nearly a million people from dying or something. That even mitigation as brutal and costly as this has proven insufficient to yield a better outcome is a testament to exactly how important it really is for triple-vaxxed people like yours truly to go on masking at work every day: not very. And frankly, my company's masking policy isn't about public health anyway, it's about public relations. Albersons policy is to follow CDC guidelines. Masking is required for employees because the CDC recommends it. The CDC is currently controlled by the Biden Administration. You can see my political relationship to these calls hence. Anyway, you can tell it's not about public health because if it were then our customers, who are far less likely to be vaccinated than we are (nearly all of us who work in the store are vaxxed), would have to mask as well, or even perhaps instead. That's what gets to me about it; that it's clearly not about public health. I mean our store managers are maskless half the day, like every time they're out of plain view of customers practically. When that winter storm hit last last week and only a few people came in, none of us wore masks, including the management. We are past that stage of this psychologically. It's just done for show so that people like you won't go off like this on us and physically assault somebody.


> I don't see how one can look at that and feel like the wrong decision was made here.

Because they're not scientists or immunologists or statisticians.

My children would be screaming for joy if I gave them some candy, that doesn't mean it's the best thing for them.

>store managers are maskless half the day

Pretty sure they're not scientists, immunologists either. 

>we shut the economy down

The entire world largely shut its economy down. It's kind of hard to have a thriving business when you have many workers that are either out sick, or dead and need to be replaced, or too scared to come in.

And of course there's a mental health crisis. This pandemic has been stressful. The disease is stressful. The lockdowns and the shortages have been stressful. It's been stressful watching people freak out over wearing a basic mask. It's been stressful continuing watching people reject facts, just because they don't like them. It's been stressful watching people think they know better than scientists. It's been stressful watching people compare masks and vaccines to literal genocide and the holocaust. It's been stressful watching people compare the vaccines to the literal mark of the devil.

It's been stressful watching my former coworker call Dr. Fauci the anti-christ because numerology told him so.


Before the pandemic I had a lot of faith in humanity. That we would solve all the big problems that were faced in front of us. Climate change, pollution, racism, etc. Not that it would be easy, but someday that we would get there.

I've lost so much faith in humanity, that I will legitimately be surprised if Idiocracy doesn't end up becoming a satirical documentary.



I hate that's it's becoming (more?) left vs right in Canada as well now. Maybe it always was that way, but the pandemic has stoked the flames to the point that it's turning into mutual assured destruction. How long have the blockades gone on now? What good are they doing but creating more of a divide?

Protests always attract the trouble makers, alt-left, alt-right, doesn't matter. Why focus on the fringe groups to further the divide between left and right. Liberal, conservatives, we're all people having to share the same resources and putting up with each others waste.

Unless you want civil war, we have to find a way to all live together peacefully. Concessions have to be made. Wearing a mask and getting a vaccine are not big asks. There aren't / weren't blockades about being able to smoke in workplaces and shops. Yet somehow Covid became a left/right thing. Cut the bullshit. That clip about Trudy and the conservatives just makes me feel ashamed to be Canadian. Stupid remarks from Trudy then a pissing contest who is the biggest victim, wth.

Cut out the bullshit, wear a mask and get the vaccine if you have no health issues preventing either. The more people take this little effort, the faster the pandemic will become just another yearly flu shot for the vulnerable. We're almost there, why blow everything up now.



Jaicee said:

There has been a very real and serious human cost stemming not only from this goddamn virus, but also from the mitigation measures imposed to control it. I think getting a visual of that cost might help put matters more in perspective for you. Nevada lifted their indoor masking requirements the other day. Here's a glimpse of what the response looked like inside one school room in Las Vegas:



Look at all those divided opinions! Those are human beings too. I don't see how one can look at that and feel like the wrong decision was made here.

Yes, there is a human cost to something like a pandemic but why would I take the opinion of a child who only ever cares about what happens in their immediate time frame.  Even most young adults are more concerned about having their life disrupted instead of long term concerns because its to far in the future and they are more ruled on emotion.  

Why do you equate being vaccinated as a measure that stops you from spreading the virus.  Just a few weeks ago my Son came down with COVID, he is vaccinated.  After he came down with COVID, I caught it as well, I am vaccinated.  Maybe the problem with your line of thinking is that you fully do not know or understand what being vaccinated means.  Being Vaccinated does not mean you still cannot contract the virus because no vaccination is 100% effective and it definitely does not mean you cannot spread it once you get it.  For the both of us it was pretty mild but my Son face more of an issue then I did.  I really only had a very bad headache for a day or so while my Son experience flu type symptoms with Head and body aches, cough nasal issues.

I continue to wonder if COVID was more deadly where we would be now.  Well, because inherently people are selfish, we probably going to find out but the cost you believe is so important today probably going to be nothing if this progress to something bigger.  I believe we got very lucky with COVID but the response shown so far in the US, we all probably would have been looking at millions of deaths before we got people to actually mobilize.  Now with COVID fatigue, this is a prime time for a new variant to cut through like a knife.



the-pi-guy said:
padib said:


Did you know that Canada stole 10M$ in donations sent to the convoy via gofundme and gosendgo? And they are trying to control everything and now called upon an emergency act, ready to imprison Canadians for protesting, and taking their children away jailing parents for taking their kids with them? They are absolutely bonkers and lost their minds, we just don't want them in power anymore.

Was neither done by Canada, nor was it stolen. 

Don't correct me if you don't have the right information.

It was stolen to be redirected to other causes not in line with the intentions of the original donators, the charity of their choice.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8596591/gofundme-trucker-convoy-removed/#:~:text=GoFundMe%20has%20announced%20the%20fundraiser,than%20%2410%20million%20was%20raised.

“Given how this situation has evolved, no further funds will be directly distributed to the Freedom Convoy organizers — we will work with organizers to send all remaining funds to credible and established charities verified by GoFundMe,” the company said.

It's absolutely shameful, how can you defend such abhorrent behavior?

GoSendGo is approaching it differently, and rightly so:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10508291/Bank-freezes-Freedom-Convoy-supporters-accounts-crowd-fundraising-site-says-defy-order.html

Shame on you and anyone else defending this kind of behavior from our government.