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Forums - NSFW Discussion - Onlyfans banning pornography (Update: OF reverses decision.)

Jaicee said:
Torillian said:

I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the bolded. From my quick google the only thing I could find on the stats of child abuse for porn actresses was that they were no more likely to have been abused as a child than the non-porn actress public. We can argue about the legitimacy of a survey study done on 177 porn actresses (a pretty reasonable number for something like this to my understanding) but then I would want to know what study you are using to come to your conclusions. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2012.719168

I sourced all my claims, but to speak to the general body of evidence concerning rates of childhood abuse among women in the sex industry, most of that data comes from background investigations of women involved in or arrested for prostitution, which really is fine because there's a ton of overlap between all sectors of the sex trade and because prostitution is the eventual destination of a large percentage of women in pornography once their brief careers of a few months or so come to an end. There are a ton of those and they establish a clear link between childhood abuse (especially, but not exclusively, sexual abuse) and greater tendency to view sex as a commodity and to wind up in prostitution as a result and aren't confined to the United States either. Examples spanning the years can be found here, here, here, here, here, and lots of other places. They all find that significantly more than half of prostituted women suffered sexual abuse and/or battery as children, and also that women in prostitution are significantly more likely to be impoverished and drug addicts.

No analogous studies have been conducted of women in pornography specifically to my knowledge and the one you link to here is, as you can see here, broadly considered incredulous among experts because its just a survey and not an actual background investigation, because samples of convenience are used, and because one of the co-authors of the study, Sharon Mitchell, as one commenter succinctly puts it, "is a de facto lobbyist for the adult entertainment industry. She used to run AIM, the industry-funded mandatory STD testing service. She has a very personal stake in making the industry look good." The difference becomes clear when you consider that studies of prostituted women can be falsified in the same way if you just rely on surveying a control group. For example, the 2009 study of prostitutes out of Calgary, Alberta linked above finds that "the present study indicates 73% of prostitutes were sexually abused in childhood, compared to 29% of a control group obtained in a random population survey." It's not that these women are even lying necessarily, it's that sexual abuse survivors often don't fully understand what rape and sexual assault even are, as differentiated from consensual sex. I can relate to that personally, as someone who was myself raped as a kid. You'll often respond intellectually by rationalizing it to yourself so that it doesn't seem so bad and resultantly may develop a warped concept of what how sex is supposed to work.

But even if the 2012 survey you link to is fully accurate, it still in reality implies a strong connection between sexual abuse in childhood and increased likelihood of winding up in pornography, as the 36% rate of molestation indicated therein is still double the rate likewise voluntarily reported by American women in general contemporaneously. The only question here is whether it's "only" double. Only. And rape is widely understood as the most under-reported crime there is.

Actual experts widely regard sex commodification and sexual abuse in childhood to be closely linked is my point.

That is fantastic evidence for the fact that there's a link between child abuse and prostitution, but then you make a big ol' leap with no evidence that it'll just be the same for porn actors.

I am not willing to ignore the only study that we have because the second author is involved in the porn industry. Having written a number of scientific articles myself I know that the second author rarely has major input on the writing of the article or design of the scientific study and I would take a guess that this person is how they got access to the subjects given the survey and had little else to do with the study. I could be wrong but we're both just guessing at this point so we're kind of stuck. 

I don't understand what you mean by "broadly considered incredulous among experts" and then you send me to a blog post with some commenters talking about how they don't trust the study. Am I to understand that lindsay beyerstein, a Canadian journalist that I can't find any indication of having any training in sociology studies, is an expert? Most of the other commenters aren't even kind enough to provide their full names so they're as much experts as youtube commenters in my eyes. What are we qualifying as experts here? I have seen studies where experts disagree, and it's done in letters to the journal or subsequent studies, not comments on a blog. 

The 2012 study would indicate there's no difference between the control group and the porn actor group because when they were asked the same question they answered in statistically indistinguishable ways. You can't take the 36% and compare it to the overall number for the entire population when you only survey 177 people, that is why there's a control group included, to determine if there is a difference between those that are porn actors and those that aren't.  



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Torillian said:

That is fantastic evidence for the fact that there's a link between child abuse and prostitution, but then you make a big ol' leap with no evidence that it'll just be the same for porn actors.

I am not willing to ignore the only study that we have because the second author is involved in the porn industry. Having written a number of scientific articles myself I know that the second author rarely has major input on the writing of the article or design of the scientific study and I would take a guess that this person is how they got access to the subjects given the survey and had little else to do with the study. I could be wrong but we're both just guessing at this point so we're kind of stuck. 

I don't understand what you mean by "broadly considered incredulous among experts" and then you send me to a blog post with some commenters talking about how they don't trust the study. Am I to understand that lindsay beyerstein, a Canadian journalist that I can't find any indication of having any training in sociology studies, is an expert? Most of the other commenters aren't even kind enough to provide their full names so they're as much experts as youtube commenters in my eyes. What are we qualifying as experts here? I have seen studies where experts disagree, and it's done in letters to the journal or subsequent studies, not comments on a blog. 

The 2012 study would indicate there's no difference between the control group and the porn actor group because when they were asked the same question they answered in statistically indistinguishable ways. You can't take the 36% and compare it to the overall number for the entire population when you only survey 177 people, that is why there's a control group included, to determine if there is a difference between those that are porn actors and those that aren't.  

I don't know, it seems like you're telling me what I can and cannot use the survey data as a comparison to. A survey of 177 porn performers is valid in as far it indicates women in pornography are less often molestation survivors than prostitutes, but invalid in as far as it indicates they're also more often molestation survivors than women overall are. It seems as though you're just arbitrarily cherry-picking where the data here is applicable and isn't in such a way as to fulfill a predetermined, self-serving narrative. I'm pointing to a clear connection between childhood abuse and sex commodification and it seems like you're just trying to find any way you possibly can of weaseling around it.

What I'm telling you is that the study of 177 porn performers in question highlights the MINIMUM rate of childhood sexual abuse among them, not the maximum plausible, and that even this minimal estimate is extraordinary. This is the point.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 26 August 2021

curl-6 said:
The_Yoda said:

Drug dealers provide people with a service people want... is drug dealing a real job too? Well outside of doctors of course.  I'm only half kidding and I know one is considered illegal.

Well there's your answer, one's breaking the law and one isn't. Personally I'm for decriminalizing drugs and treating it as a health and social issue, but that's a whole other topic and not relevant to sex workers on Only Fans.

Both dealing drugs and performing sex work are real jobs.  If law is the arbiter, then tens of millions of people working "under the table" in just about every industry don't have real jobs either. That is ridiculous on its face.  

Also, this idea that OF performers that create 30 minutes of video per day only work 30 minutes is..... I don't have a word for it.  Nonsense maybe a good one.  That would be like saying a feature film must have only taken a couple hours of work, because it is only a couple hours long.  



Jaicee said:
Torillian said:

That is fantastic evidence for the fact that there's a link between child abuse and prostitution, but then you make a big ol' leap with no evidence that it'll just be the same for porn actors.

I am not willing to ignore the only study that we have because the second author is involved in the porn industry. Having written a number of scientific articles myself I know that the second author rarely has major input on the writing of the article or design of the scientific study and I would take a guess that this person is how they got access to the subjects given the survey and had little else to do with the study. I could be wrong but we're both just guessing at this point so we're kind of stuck. 

I don't understand what you mean by "broadly considered incredulous among experts" and then you send me to a blog post with some commenters talking about how they don't trust the study. Am I to understand that lindsay beyerstein, a Canadian journalist that I can't find any indication of having any training in sociology studies, is an expert? Most of the other commenters aren't even kind enough to provide their full names so they're as much experts as youtube commenters in my eyes. What are we qualifying as experts here? I have seen studies where experts disagree, and it's done in letters to the journal or subsequent studies, not comments on a blog. 

The 2012 study would indicate there's no difference between the control group and the porn actor group because when they were asked the same question they answered in statistically indistinguishable ways. You can't take the 36% and compare it to the overall number for the entire population when you only survey 177 people, that is why there's a control group included, to determine if there is a difference between those that are porn actors and those that aren't.  

I don't know, it seems like you're telling me what I can and cannot use the survey data as a comparison to. A survey of 177 porn performers is valid in as far it indicates women in pornography are less often molestation survivors than prostitutes, but invalid in as far as it indicates they're also more often molestation survivors than women overall are. It seems as though you're just arbitrarily cherry-picking where the data here is applicable and isn't in such a way as to fulfill a predetermined, self-serving narrative. I'm pointing to a clear connection between childhood abuse and sex commodification and it seems like you're just trying to find any way you possibly can of weaseling around it.

What I'm telling you is that the study of 177 porn performers in question highlights the MINIMUM rate of childhood sexual abuse among them, not the maximum plausible, and that even this minimal estimate is extraordinary. This is the point.

The issue is what the study was designed to look at. This was not a representative sample designed to arrive at an absolute % of porn actors who were molested over the entire country. It would have too many issues such as only getting respondents from a single geographical area. You could state that this is representative of the city the survey was done in but you would only be able to compare that to other data about that city. Even if you did that you would still have to concern yourself with the wording of the survey itself and any other factors that may differentiate it from the survey you are trying to compare its results to.

What the study was designed to do, however, is to try and tell the difference between two groups (porn actor vs "civilian") which takes away almost all of these issues because your experimental and your control groups are subjected to the same conditions. 

To me this is a question about math and science, I honestly could have accepted your claim originally but I googled it and this is the only study I found and it went against your claim. You can think that I'm trying to weasel around something if you want, but the only study we have on this is on my side so I'm comfortable in my stance here. 

The issues you are stating with underreporting should affect the control group in the same way so I wouldn't be overly concerned about it affecting the analysis of this study. 

If you want to improve your case I would suggest trying to find proof that a large percentage of porn actors are prostitutes. I tried to find something on that after you made the claim but didn't have any luck. If you could find that you might have an argument for applying all those studies on prostitutes to porn actors. Unsure what percentage it would have to be for it to affect the data meaningfully, I'd have to think about that, but based on a guesstimate I'd think 20% or more would be a significant amount. 



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Jaicee said:
LurkerJ said:

I mean… just bringing problems and linking to easily accessible porn is kind of a weird way to approach the issue at hand. Erectile dysfunction? Maybe because America is fat? The quality of food has deteriorated? More estrogen and estrogen-like materials in food and food containers? Maybe the younger generation has no hope of owning a home and starting a life without having to work in competitive field make them stressed all the time?

The reality is that unless you’re a super working hard individual who goes to medical school, engineering school or chooses a very relevant speciality, you’ll end up struggling saving up. Even if you end up with a relevant degree, you’ll still need to compete with locals and foreigners giving how open the market is right now. Long gone the days in which working as a seller in a shop 5 days a week, 12 hours a day, was enough to live a life with dignity (owning a house). I’d say all of this has a much bigger impact on someone’s well-being and ability to perform than watching porn. Even if porn is responsible for making sex less appealing, is that a really problem? It’s not like you’re not getting any joy out of porn or masturbating? If you prefer to have a fuller sex experience and you’re convinced porn is the reason, stop watching porn and see how that affects your sexual life overall? Also, I imagine in a porn-less society, one would still close their eyes and masturbate anyway….  

As for porn portrayal of women and lesbians, that is a problem with the entertainment media as a whole. Women and minorities only recently started to get a proper presentation in movies, TV, etc. So recent that Harvery’s abuse was public knowledge, a subject of comedy for many sitcoms (BoJack and 30 rock), until someone decided to “hmm…. This isn’t good”. The answer to these problems is to correct them, protect women and minorities, and provide them with the ability to perform without having to be victims. But again, most here are pointing fingers without providing solutions, me including  

I don’t know about rape and pornography, but it would be interesting to look at the numbers you brought up and dissect them. Maybe rape has gone up because population has increased magnificently? Genuinely curious. Also the definition of what is considered rape has changed, hasn’t it? It wouldn’t surprise me if rape in the past was a much bigger issue. Again, talking out of my ass here, but I am on a hurry and a in-depth look at the numbers would help. 

I honestly don’t know about rape statistics, but the general theme in this thread has been “porn consumption has increase, so mental health issues and rape. A connection must be there!”…. No? 

*shrugs*

I'd respond further but you've just said an awful lot of nothing. It seems to me that you're basically just reaching for explanations for each development I pointed to that are not linked to pornography. I sourced my claims.

As to the topic of rape specifically, the 2013 changes in the legal definition of rape can only potentially explain an sudden statistical increase for that specific year. It doesn't explain similar upticks for all the other years in question, does it?

The question of what precisely has caused this recent uptick in the reporting of rapes is assuredly multifaceted, involving factors as superficial as the six-month impact of the Me Too movement in late 2017 and early 2018 resulting in more people feeling emboldened to come forward with their stories and to report surviving sexual abuse and mistreatment in general... stuff ranging from as superficial as that to surges in criminal activity in general in specific years, like in 2015-16, corresponding to waves of Black Lives Matter protests and riots over police killings of unarmed black men and the consequential temporary pullbacks in policing in general. There are still periods unaccounted for by any of this though; periods wherein crime rates overall were falling, but rapes were increasing anyway, for example. At that point realistic explanations have to include cultural factors, like an increase prevalence of porn use. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that the "Trump effect" was likely also a factor; that his election shortly after the infamous Access Hollywood tape came out likely signaled to some people that sexual assault is now okay the same way that his election resulted in a substantial increase in hate crimes.

My point though is that the argument that pornography reduces rape the same way it reduces sex overall in society doesn't exactly hold up to the evidence. What we have today, as compared with a decade ago, is less sex overall, but more rape specifically. That is the picture. And it's not an improvement.

Rape statistics are notoriously complicated, especially when speaking about reported rapes, so it is very difficult to look at trend lines and make them out to say anything beyond what they are literally saying. To rephrase, from the UCR dataset, you can say that rapes reported to police have been increasing since 2013 (after a steady two decade decline), but you cannot then simply assume that the reason for this is an increase in rape prevalence. 

Notably, if you look at NCVS data (victimization survey's which do not require reports to law enforcement), "Rape/Sexual Assault Victimization" was lower in both 2016 and 2017 when compared to 2015, and the most recent data from 2019 is not statistically different from the 2015 data. That said, even this data suffers greatly from variations in reporting (as demonstrated by the #MeToo spike in 2018) and it is difficult to determine whether any trend is a result of changes in reporting vs changes in victimization.