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Forums - Gaming - Sony's U-turn - Should first party games be cross-gen?

 

Should new first party titles be cross-gen?

Yes, and I love that they are 13 22.41%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should be 8 13.79%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should not 26 44.83%
 
No, they should be for next gen only. 11 18.97%
 
Total:58
Mr Puggsly said:

Here's the primary question, does going cross gen change the scale or how the game functions? If the answer is no, then it doesn't really matter.

100% this is the heart of the issue from the consumer perspective.

And as I mentioned and has been argued again, the console sales perspective is pretty much a closed case. They're selling out everything they can make so the downsides that might normally exist are made redundant. 

I am inclined to think that the two primary routes that they can hold back next gen are:

1. CPU bottleneck. Not such an issue at 30fps (the fx-6300 manages above 30fps on Valhalla, Cyberpunk and sometimes can scrape 30fps in Flight Sim 2020), where the last gen consoles are still serviceable. But some cases where 60fps will be targeted on last gen... you have to worry. I'm looking at Halo Infinite and Battlefield 6 having large potential to have their ambitions cut short by a requirement to target 60fps on what was a low-end CPU from 2012...

2. Engine choice. I was interested to hear Ryse: Son of Rome brought up as a good example of an early-gen game which used cutting edge tech. We haven't seen anything like it yet this generation. The temptation as well to rely on BC mode to get your game on next gen rather than using a native port also rules out even making modest engine adjustments to bring in additional visual features. But the fact is that Ryse (and arguably Killzone: Shadow fall) were outliers does go to show that most of what were "next gen"-only games ran on old tech regardless. 

Last edited by AkimboCurly - on 05 June 2021

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Regarding the thread title and a U-turn by Sony. This isnt some recent U-turn, they've decided on this cross gen release from the get go but decided to take advantage of when Microsoft received criticism by stating they believe in generations and holding back on the announcement of their cross gen releases.



tag:"reviews only matter for the real hardcore gamer"

Kyuu said:

An underpowered lowest common denominator hurts the fidelity of the game even on higher end hardware. An excellent case study on this is Dragon Quest XI, which had 3 main versions:

1. 3DS version
2. PS4 variants
3. Switch variants

The Switch version was based on PS4's, but they extensively redesigned and recoded a lot of aspects because downscaling it to Switch was problematic due to compatibility issues and whatnot. The interesting part is that this version (DQXIS) was later ported to PS4/X1/PC for the added content which couldn't be patched into the original game (PS4 variants), and the result was a very noticeable downgrade from the original PS4 version! Engine scalability isn't a magic wand. Had the Switch been the lead platform for DQXI and gotten the game simultaneously with PS4, we wouldn't have been graced with the visually superior PS4 variants without Square Enix being extra generous.

Not every publisher is nice, capable, or stupid enough to remake a game TWICE within a relatively short period of time. Multiplatform games' graphics are typically decided by the lowest common denominator. Apart from performance and resolution gains, the extra niceties higher end hardware provides to this set of games aren't much to write home about.

Game engines continue to improve over the generations, but beyond a certain gap in specs, scalability cannot efficiently take advantage of the entire hardware spectrum in meaningful ways. It's not even enough to deal with purely visual aspects, let alone mechanical and physics based elements.

If you're into CrossGen games like Phil "held back is a meme" Spencer, then more power to you. But a lot of us want to be blown away as early and frequently as possible by less compromised experiences. The more the merrier.

No need to look far, it's noticed after every patch in FS2020. The game keeps getting downgrades, supposedly to get it running on Series S/X. It does run more stable now, slightly higher avg fps and a bit more conservative in memory management. However draw distance has suffered (and can't be modded back), terrain rendering has gotten worse (more simplified, more pop in, more visible transitions) night lighting has suffered and looks very arcady now, turbulence modeling has been dialed back, landing in cross winds made easier (odd sticky tires introduced) an clouds appear more pixelated at dawn and dusk or half covering the sun. Meanwhile many issues that have been there since day one haven't been fixed yet.

However FS2020 was first made on high end PCs, and now needs to be scaled down to run on console as well. GT7 uses the GT Sport engine with the assets already made future proof for ps5. I bet God Of War started development on ps4 as well with the God of War engine. It's easier to add enhancements for a more powerful version than to have to scale it down. GT Sport uses baked lighting, perhaps GT7 on ps5 can do it real time. Same for God of War, RT shadows instead of baked shadows and reflections. Perhaps remove the loading corridors on ps5 and other things to disguise loading times.

Engine scale-ability is indeed not magic, see CP2077. But since these games are coming from ps4 code base, they can only go up. Would it be nice to have GT7 and Ragnorak made from the ground up for ps5? Sure, but then they won't be out until 2024. GT Sport came out in a bare bones state in 2017, 4 years after the ps4 (and GT6) launched. New engine, made to make full use of the new gen, takes a lot of time to create. Santa Monica studios could maybe have started to work on a ps5 engine right after God of War released. However that would be working with lots of unknowns until the ps5 was finalized, then a 2 year pandemic slowing everything down, earliest possible release 2023, likely still 2024.

New stuff is coming, we just haven't invented time travel yet so studios can start working with the final specs and dev kits 4 years before launch :p



Svennoj said:

No need to look far, it's noticed after every patch in FS2020. The game keeps getting downgrades, supposedly to get it running on Series S/X. It does run more stable now, slightly higher avg fps and a bit more conservative in memory management. However draw distance has suffered (and can't be modded back), terrain rendering has gotten worse (more simplified, more pop in, more visible transitions) night lighting has suffered and looks very arcady now, turbulence modeling has been dialed back, landing in cross winds made easier (odd sticky tires introduced) an clouds appear more pixelated at dawn and dusk or half covering the sun. Meanwhile many issues that have been there since day one haven't been fixed yet.

However FS2020 was first made on high end PCs, and now needs to be scaled down to run on console as well. 

I don't find this example particularly impressive. 

Firstly I had been under the impression that the FS2020 "downgrades" were due to GeForce experience sticking its nose in where it doesn't belong, rather than due to any changes to the app itself. 

Secondly there's a pretty tenuous link between a Series S (or Series X) version and any downgrades. The Series S exceeds the recommended requirements, and removing features from the engine wouldn't help with that problem even if it existed.

Don't disagree in principle though



AkimboCurly said:
Svennoj said:

No need to look far, it's noticed after every patch in FS2020. The game keeps getting downgrades, supposedly to get it running on Series S/X. It does run more stable now, slightly higher avg fps and a bit more conservative in memory management. However draw distance has suffered (and can't be modded back), terrain rendering has gotten worse (more simplified, more pop in, more visible transitions) night lighting has suffered and looks very arcady now, turbulence modeling has been dialed back, landing in cross winds made easier (odd sticky tires introduced) an clouds appear more pixelated at dawn and dusk or half covering the sun. Meanwhile many issues that have been there since day one haven't been fixed yet.

However FS2020 was first made on high end PCs, and now needs to be scaled down to run on console as well. 

I don't find this example particularly impressive. 

Firstly I had been under the impression that the FS2020 "downgrades" were due to GeForce experience sticking its nose in where it doesn't belong, rather than due to any changes to the app itself. 

Secondly there's a pretty tenuous link between a Series S (or Series X) version and any downgrades. The Series S exceeds the recommended requirements, and removing features from the engine wouldn't help with that problem even if it existed.

Don't disagree in principle though

I fly 6 hours a day, have over 12,000 screenshots, just stating my experience with the engine. I don't have GeForce Experience installed or any other after market enhancements. I have sharpening turned off though (in usercfg.opt) and downsample from 1620p to 1080p to get a sharper picture. (TAA implementation is rather soft)

The app has changed several times, and not always in a good way. Maybe they're just trying to optimize it for slower CPUs in general, yet threads like these are ongoing.
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/lod-problems-distances-revisited/307551
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/night-lighting-issues-still-present-the-community-solutions/310086/1136
Hopefully shifting to DX12 will help a bit, currently the app is limited by one core. It does use multiple cores but it always maxes out one and leaves the rest underutilized.

Anyway my solution it to fly slower (or pause for a bit), let the sim catch up :) A restart helps as well to get it running smooth again.

Btw the recommended requirements are laughable, it all depends where you fly. PC that can fly full speed over London PG data at 60fps without the landscape turning into a melted mess haven't been made yet :)



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SvennoJ said:



Engine scale-ability is indeed not magic, see CP2077. But since these games are coming from ps4 code base, they can only go up. Would it be nice to have GT7 and Ragnorak made from the ground up for ps5? Sure, but then they won't be out until 2024. GT Sport came out in a bare bones state in 2017, 4 years after the ps4 (and GT6) launched. New engine, made to make full use of the new gen, takes a lot of time to create. Santa Monica studios could maybe have started to work on a ps5 engine right after God of War released. However that would be working with lots of unknowns until the ps5 was finalized, then a 2 year pandemic slowing everything down, earliest possible release 2023, likely still 2024.

New stuff is coming, we just haven't invented time travel yet so studios can start working with the final specs and dev kits 4 years before launch :p

Great points. For people concerned about cross gen titles that aren't build from the ground to run on new hardware, I guess most of them are just no aware most of AAA/AAAA games development cycle is 3 years or even longer. I'm not sure if it's reasonable to expect a 2022 PS5 game to be built from the ground for PS5 since 2018 when not even PS5 architecture was finished 

Business decisions aside, I thought it was common sense games that take full advantage of new hardware won't come before 2024



shikamaru317 said:

Cross-gen makes the decision I had already made to wait on PS5 Slim feel like a much better decision, so I'm happy with it, lol. Will play Horizon: Forbidden West and God of War 5 on my PS4 Pro now most likely, unless they feel unplayable in terms of framerate or something. The rest of their exclusives that interest me currently, like FF16, FF7 R, Deathloop, Ghostwire Tokyo, and Kena are timed exclusives, so I can just wait and play them on my Xbox Series.

I am in the exact same boat in regards to waiting on a revision and being fine with my Pro since they’re all coming anyway. Though idc for that FF stuff you listed, yuck lol.



shikamaru317 said:

Cross-gen makes the decision I had already made to wait on PS5 Slim feel like a much better decision, so I'm happy with it, lol. Will play Horizon: Forbidden West and God of War 5 on my PS4 Pro now most likely, unless they feel unplayable in terms of framerate or something. The rest of their exclusives that interest me currently, like FF16, FF7 R, Deathloop, Ghostwire Tokyo, and Kena are timed exclusives, so I can just wait and play them on my Xbox Series.

I'm the opposite, I skipped Ghost of Tushima to play it on PS5, same with GTA5, waited for a ps4 version and waited for a Wii before playing Twilight Princess. I'm in no rush to get a ps5 though, good games stay good. It just feels nice to already have a bunch of things to play when I get a new console.



Cross Gen games means there was no need for a new console in the first place. The whole point of a new console generation is to allow developers create titles that weren't possible on the previous console generation. If 1st party software isn't going to be tailored for the platform then no software will be. It's why I have no desire to pick up a Xbox Series console. I have a gaming PC.



I really don't care that they are, especially since the three games in question were likely started years ago for PS4 in the first place. It is much easier to scale up than it is down afterall, and the previous entries for each of those games was quite a few years back. So the timeline adds up that no one should be suprised.

What I don't like however, is how Sony did not reveal that two of these games would be cross gen till 6 months after the PS5 had launched. This is quite shady, and was clearly done to generate hype for the launch of the PS5. So for someone like me, who would have bought a PS5 for GoW, Horizon, or GT7...if I had rushed out to drop 500 bucks on a console I thought I needed to play these games, just to be revealed later that I could have played them on my Pro...I would be pissed. Especially since I also already own a Series X for gamepass and the fact that my VCR X1 needed the replacement more than my PS4 Pro did, which means I already have multiplats covered for performance boosts.

It just really rubs me the wrong way, and there is really no excuse for it. Again, the games being crossgen are not a problem. How they handled revealing the fact is the problem.



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