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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Sony's U-turn - Should first party games be cross-gen?

 

Should new first party titles be cross-gen?

Yes, and I love that they are 13 22.41%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should be 8 13.79%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should not 26 44.83%
 
No, they should be for next gen only. 11 18.97%
 
Total:58

Like all things in life, there needs to be balance, context, and nuance to the argument; the solution has to take all of this into account.

Nintendo's historic 'when we start a new console the old one might as well be dead to us' mentality isn't good. Microsoft's 'we don't believe in new generations, consoles are like PCs' take isn't great, either.

When sony said 'we believe in console generations' I was stopping to wonder if maybe it'd be better if there was a blend, and it appears there are. I do see the value in making sure that a new console has experiences one can ONLY get on that console, as it gives the console incentive. I also see the value in making some games come out on both generational consoles since some people can't afford to get the new console and others just can't find any consoles available for purchase.

Putting more niche or specific experiences exclusively on PS5 (Demon's Souls, Ratchet & Clank, and Returnal) is good for making the console have some games and experiences that only it has, and thus gives consumers incentives to invest. But for those who can't invest or are okay waiting, putting one's bigger games like Horizon, Spider-Man, and god of War on both will maximize sales and ensure nobody feels left out.

And this generation is by far the easiest transition of any console generation, ever. This goes for PS5 and XSX, because a lot of those games purchased last generation can be automatically updated to the new generation free of charge, which gives incentive for folks who can't make the leap to the new generation to go ahead and buy those cross-generation titles. I know some folks will scream 'fangirl' at me, but I do feel that Sony has taken the best of all three parts of this equation into consideration and given us the best overall transitional period of all times. The Ps1 to PS2 transition was pretty damn great but given the lack of installs and downloadable games, you couldn't get a 'free' copy of the game on the newest generation. They have the true exclusives that are more niche but take advantage of the system's power, the cross generational titles that will sell well on both consoles and serve as a transitional period for those who can't or won't make the change yet, and for those who do wait the cross-buy/free upgrades means that nobody is missing out no matter what route they take.



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

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The_Liquid_Laser said:

Sony is being moronic with their first party titles.  The purpose of first party games is sell hardware.  That's it.  That's the only goal.  Maximizing software revenue is stupid.  Why?  Because Sony makes most of their profits from license fees on third party games.  That is where the real money is, and they increase those profits by maximizing their hardware install base.  

The truth is that it's moronic even for Nintendo to try to focus on first party software profits, and a huge chunk of their revenue comes from first party software.  For Sony, it should be even more clear.  Their whole business model is based on getting huge third party software sales.  They need to make first party games that will sell hardware and that is it.  The large install base keeps third party developers happy.  On the other hand, if their install base isn't big enough, or grows too slowly, then third party sales are lower and they lose significantly more in profits.  On top of that, gamers end up wondering what "would have been" if the first party game had been developed solely for PS5.

Basically the upside to cross-gen is small and the downside is huge.  Sony is making a dumb move here.

You be sure to tell that to them in 5-10 years when the PS5 has sold over 100 million units and has become one of the best-selling consoles of all time. Because they're on the same track they were on (with even better first and third party support) in their first year as the Ps4, which is currently the 2nd best selling console of all time, next only to the PS2, which they also made (Switch WILL eclipse it but it's not there yet.) 

so yeah, tell us more about how Sony is making the wrong moves. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

As a person that bought a ps5 at launch, I don't like the fact that these big IPs are cross gen while being more expensive to purchase... Like I was under the impression that the price increase for current gen games to $70 was because the games are getting more expensive to make so they need more money as the user base for a new generation is very low. But now you have this situation where not only are the games more expensive, they are also not utilizing the current gen hardware to it's fullest extent and have the user base of the last gen in addition to current gen.

But my biggest problem is the fact that we won't see a God of War or Horizon (or who knows what other big games) that will fully utilize PS5's hardware for many more years. Like yea, Forbidden West looks really good but imagine what Forbidden West that's not held back by the PS4 would look like... And now we have to wait even longer for that to happen... Especially in an era of gaming where we see one or (if lucky) two games per generation from a franchise.

Last edited by Jizz_Beard_thePirate - on 04 June 2021

                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

Captain_Yuri said:


But my biggest problem is the fact that we won't see a God of War or Horizon (or who knows what other big games) that will fully utilize PS5's hardware for many more years.

We usually don't see the full utilization of the hardware until the end of its life cycle. 



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

DroidKnight said:
Captain_Yuri said:


But my biggest problem is the fact that we won't see a God of War or Horizon (or who knows what other big games) that will fully utilize PS5's hardware for many more years.

We usually don't see the full utilization of the hardware until the end of its life cycle. 

I suppose a better term would be... We won't see a God of War or Horizon that isn't held back by PS4 for many more years.



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

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Runa216 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Sony is being moronic with their first party titles.  The purpose of first party games is sell hardware.  That's it.  That's the only goal.  Maximizing software revenue is stupid.  Why?  Because Sony makes most of their profits from license fees on third party games.  That is where the real money is, and they increase those profits by maximizing their hardware install base.  

The truth is that it's moronic even for Nintendo to try to focus on first party software profits, and a huge chunk of their revenue comes from first party software.  For Sony, it should be even more clear.  Their whole business model is based on getting huge third party software sales.  They need to make first party games that will sell hardware and that is it.  The large install base keeps third party developers happy.  On the other hand, if their install base isn't big enough, or grows too slowly, then third party sales are lower and they lose significantly more in profits.  On top of that, gamers end up wondering what "would have been" if the first party game had been developed solely for PS5.

Basically the upside to cross-gen is small and the downside is huge.  Sony is making a dumb move here.

You be sure to tell that to them in 5-10 years when the PS5 has sold over 100 million units and has become one of the best-selling consoles of all time. Because they're on the same track they were on (with even better first and third party support) in their first year as the Ps4, which is currently the 2nd best selling console of all time, next only to the PS2, which they also made (Switch WILL eclipse it but it's not there yet.) 

so yeah, tell us more about how Sony is making the wrong moves. 

I'm sorry, but your post was bullshit.  First the PS4 is not the second best selling console of all time.  That would be the DS.

More importantly, Sony loses half of the time.  They do not get to rest on their laurels and make a bunch of bad decisions and then succeed.  That is not how it works.  Do you know what happens when Sony releases a system with only multiplatform games?  PS Vita.  That is what happens.

PS5 is not guaranteed to sell over 100m units.  Right now it is mostly selling to people who will buy a box that has PS5 written on it.  There are actually not very  many people like this in the world as these people only buy for the first year or so.  The vast majority of "Playstation" fans are actually fans of the games.  They are really God of War fans or Spider-Man fans or whatever.  They are fans of specific games.  They don't have much reason to buy a PS5 if they can already play it on PS4.

Software sells hardware.  That is why PS5 is not guaranteed to become a "best selling" anything.  It needs exclusive software, or at least software that is exclusive to Gen 9.  If they want to release hardware that doesn't have special games of it's own, then they should expect another flop like the Vita.  There are good games on the Vita, but you can play them on other platforms.  This is the kind of strategy that Sony is using for the PS5 right now.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Runa216 said:

You be sure to tell that to them in 5-10 years when the PS5 has sold over 100 million units and has become one of the best-selling consoles of all time. Because they're on the same track they were on (with even better first and third party support) in their first year as the Ps4, which is currently the 2nd best selling console of all time, next only to the PS2, which they also made (Switch WILL eclipse it but it's not there yet.) 

so yeah, tell us more about how Sony is making the wrong moves. 

I'm sorry, but your post was bullshit.  First the PS4 is not the second best selling console of all time.  That would be the DS.

More importantly, Sony loses half of the time.  They do not get to rest on their laurels and make a bunch of bad decisions and then succeed.  That is not how it works.  Do you know what happens when Sony releases a system with only multiplatform games?  PS Vita.  That is what happens.

PS5 is not guaranteed to sell over 100m units.  Right now it is mostly selling to people who will buy a box that has PS5 written on it.  There are actually not very  many people like this in the world as these people only buy for the first year or so.  The vast majority of "Playstation" fans are actually fans of the games.  They are really God of War fans or Spider-Man fans or whatever.  They are fans of specific games.  They don't have much reason to buy a PS5 if they can already play it on PS4.

Software sells hardware.  That is why PS5 is not guaranteed to become a "best selling" anything.  It needs exclusive software, or at least software that is exclusive to Gen 9.  If they want to release hardware that doesn't have special games of it's own, then they should expect another flop like the Vita.  There are good games on the Vita, but you can play them on other platforms.  This is the kind of strategy that Sony is using for the PS5 right now.

DS ain't a console, DS is a handheld. Switch is BOTH a console and a handheld. No console is guaranteed 100 million units but considering the PS3 is the only sony console to not to so and that was heavily impacted by their atrocious first half and STILL came within 13 million of that mark, I'd be willing to bet my gaming future on PS5 hitting 100 million easily. Plenty of people actually really like what PS5 is doing, and having it be backwards compatible means that it opens the world for more fans that didn't get a PS4. PS has always had such a diverse lineup of first and second and third party exclusives that it's hard to quantify what brings people to Sony's consoles, so pinning any bulk of their audience to one or two games is pretty silly all things considered. 

While I do agree that software sells hardware, hardware also sells hardware and loyalty is absolutely a factor here. I bought a Ps5 not because of its stellar launch lineup (which I actually do think was pretty damn fantastic but not enough on its own), but as an investment in the future. PS1 pried me away from a strict Nintendo grasp, Ps2 was the best console ever and remains the best selling of all time, PS3 hurt for a while but ended up being another fantastic console, and the PS4 is probably the best overall console I've ever played. that or the Switch. Sony flubs from time to time, that's absolutely certain (some of them are astronomically bad), but buying a console is always an investment. An investment that is inspired by prior history and momentum. I bought a PS5 console because I know, based on the last 25 years of Sony's history, that there will be games. there are games and there will be more. We will see a good balance of exclusives, multiplatform titles, indies, AAA blockbusters, western and eastern and worldwide influences, etc. I love Nintendo, but I mostly love them for Mario and Zelda and Smash. With Sony...I love them for pretty much everything else and it seems the worldwide audience is with me here.

That's why the PS1 was the first console to break 100 million units sold. that's why the PS2 remains the top selling home console of all time. That's why as of right now, 4 of the top 5 highest selling home consoles are Playstation consoles (PS2 - 157 million, PS4 - 113 million, PS1 - 102 million, Wii - 101 Million, PS3 - 87 million). We know for a fact that the Nintendo Switch will probably be #2 for sure and maybe even #1 by the end of its run, but in that same run we can absolutely expect the PS5 to enter that top 5 as well. They traditionally don't do any one thing outstandingly well, but do so many things well enough that they regularly have the widest, worldwide audience. And their stance on exclusives is another in a long line of good decisions made by the company. The Digital age has allowed them (And Microsoft, let's be fair and honest) to blur the lines of console generations by making the transition easier than ever. 

Short term they don't NEED the sales, as they can't keep up with demand as it is. Long term, they know that ensuring their consoles remain supported long into their subsequent generations breeds brand loyalty. PS1 was supported long into Ps2's life cycle, PS2 was supported until I think 2013 when the Ps4 launched, and we're onto the Ps5 now and they're just now thinking about shutting down the PS3's storefront. 

The point is, like I said at first, is that sony has been pretty smart about balancing the many factors involved. They are giving us pure exclusives but mostly keeping them to niche titles or smaller, mid-range games. their big sellers are cross-generational and cross-buy to ensure that people who like what they have to offer aren't missing out. People who loved PS4 for Spider-Man and God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn can still play the next games on that console if they can't manage to get the sold-out stock. Many people can't get a PS5, this way those people don't miss out while there's still a distinct difference between the generations. IT's a win-win, really. 

I just...I don't even know what to say to you, man. You're allowed to have opinions but they don't seem to be rooted in the real world here. Like, you're so off-base about so many facts and ideas and claims and predictions and I don't think your arguments are as helpful to your stance as you think they are. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

I'm sorry, but your post was bullshit.  First the PS4 is not the second best selling console of all time.  That would be the DS.

More importantly, Sony loses half of the time.  They do not get to rest on their laurels and make a bunch of bad decisions and then succeed.  That is not how it works.  Do you know what happens when Sony releases a system with only multiplatform games?  PS Vita.  That is what happens.

PS5 is not guaranteed to sell over 100m units.  Right now it is mostly selling to people who will buy a box that has PS5 written on it.  There are actually not very  many people like this in the world as these people only buy for the first year or so.  The vast majority of "Playstation" fans are actually fans of the games.  They are really God of War fans or Spider-Man fans or whatever.  They are fans of specific games.  They don't have much reason to buy a PS5 if they can already play it on PS4.

Software sells hardware.  That is why PS5 is not guaranteed to become a "best selling" anything.  It needs exclusive software, or at least software that is exclusive to Gen 9.  If they want to release hardware that doesn't have special games of it's own, then they should expect another flop like the Vita.  There are good games on the Vita, but you can play them on other platforms.  This is the kind of strategy that Sony is using for the PS5 right now.

DS ain't a console, DS is a handheld. Switch is BOTH a console and a handheld. No console is guaranteed 100 million units but considering the PS3 is the only sony console to not to so and that was heavily impacted by their atrocious first half and STILL came within 13 million of that mark, I'd be willing to bet my gaming future on PS5 hitting 100 million easily. Plenty of people actually really like what PS5 is doing, and having it be backwards compatible means that it opens the world for more fans that didn't get a PS4. PS has always had such a diverse lineup of first and second and third party exclusives that it's hard to quantify what brings people to Sony's consoles, so pinning any bulk of their audience to one or two games is pretty silly all things considered. 

While I do agree that software sells hardware, hardware also sells hardware and loyalty is absolutely a factor here. I bought a Ps5 not because of its stellar launch lineup (which I actually do think was pretty damn fantastic but not enough on its own), but as an investment in the future. PS1 pried me away from a strict Nintendo grasp, Ps2 was the best console ever and remains the best selling of all time, PS3 hurt for a while but ended up being another fantastic console, and the PS4 is probably the best overall console I've ever played. that or the Switch. Sony flubs from time to time, that's absolutely certain (some of them are astronomically bad), but buying a console is always an investment. An investment that is inspired by prior history and momentum. I bought a PS5 console because I know, based on the last 25 years of Sony's history, that there will be games. there are games and there will be more. We will see a good balance of exclusives, multiplatform titles, indies, AAA blockbusters, western and eastern and worldwide influences, etc. I love Nintendo, but I mostly love them for Mario and Zelda and Smash. With Sony...I love them for pretty much everything else and it seems the worldwide audience is with me here.

That's why the PS1 was the first console to break 100 million units sold. that's why the PS2 remains the top selling home console of all time. That's why as of right now, 4 of the top 5 highest selling home consoles are Playstation consoles (PS2 - 157 million, PS4 - 113 million, PS1 - 102 million, Wii - 101 Million, PS3 - 87 million). We know for a fact that the Nintendo Switch will probably be #2 for sure and maybe even #1 by the end of its run, but in that same run we can absolutely expect the PS5 to enter that top 5 as well. They traditionally don't do any one thing outstandingly well, but do so many things well enough that they regularly have the widest, worldwide audience. And their stance on exclusives is another in a long line of good decisions made by the company. The Digital age has allowed them (And Microsoft, let's be fair and honest) to blur the lines of console generations by making the transition easier than ever. 

Short term they don't NEED the sales, as they can't keep up with demand as it is. Long term, they know that ensuring their consoles remain supported long into their subsequent generations breeds brand loyalty. PS1 was supported long into Ps2's life cycle, PS2 was supported until I think 2013 when the Ps4 launched, and we're onto the Ps5 now and they're just now thinking about shutting down the PS3's storefront. 

The point is, like I said at first, is that sony has been pretty smart about balancing the many factors involved. They are giving us pure exclusives but mostly keeping them to niche titles or smaller, mid-range games. their big sellers are cross-generational and cross-buy to ensure that people who like what they have to offer aren't missing out. People who loved PS4 for Spider-Man and God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn can still play the next games on that console if they can't manage to get the sold-out stock. Many people can't get a PS5, this way those people don't miss out while there's still a distinct difference between the generations. IT's a win-win, really. 

I just...I don't even know what to say to you, man. You're allowed to have opinions but they don't seem to be rooted in the real world here. Like, you're so off-base about so many facts and ideas and claims and predictions and I don't think your arguments are as helpful to your stance as you think they are. 

One mistake you are making is that you aren't counting Sony's handhelds as Playstation devices.  The Playstation brand is actually not worth a whole lot.  The PS Vita proved just how much Playstation is worth as a brand: not much.  The games?  Those are the brands that matter.  It's God of War, Spider-Man, Uncharted, ect... that have real value and not the word "Playstation".  You may have bought a PS5 purely for the Playstation brand, but you are definitely in the minority.  Here is how well the PS5 can do on brand alone by region:

Japan: PS5 is not going to sell well here.  They like handhelds in Japan and third party games are now going more toward Switch and less toward Playstation.  
RoW: A fair amount of this category is other nations along the Pacific that have similar tastes to Japan.  Expect an outcome similar to Japan's here where Playstation loses ground to Switch.
North America: Video game brands don't mean a damn thing in North America.  PS2 was super popular in North America.  The next gen most of us flocked over to the XBox360.  Well, it just so happens that Microsoft just bought a bunch of game studios, and they are about to go all out on their E3 presentation.  Hell, Microsoft even goes all out when they have no exclusive games to show.  Just imagine what they'll do when they actually have exclusive games.  Meanwhile, Sony won't even be at E3 and we are instead talking about why you don't need to buy a PS5 because of cross-gen games.  North America is the market Sony should be worrying about.  They can lose a lot of ground in North America because of their cross-gen games.
Europe: They are likely to still do well in Europe.

PS5 is not going to get to 100m systems on Europe alone.  PS3 was the top home system in Europe, and they lost a boatload of money on the PS3.  PS5 is potentially in a worse position than PS3, because they are going to be down in Japan compared to PS3.  Microsoft is going to try their hardest to get a repeat of XBox360's success in North America.  That is what basically will determine how well PS5 does.  If Sony rests on their laurels, then they are going to lose North America again.

PS5 is only guaranteed two things: jack and squat.  They can't make a bunch of mistakes and then expect to sell over 100m systems.  Making their first party games cross-gen is a huge bone-headed mistake.  The purpose of first party titles is to sell new hardware.  It isn't to maximize software revenue.  It isn't even to make your customers happy about buying your system later.  The only smart way to make first party titles is with the intention of selling hardware.  For a console owner that is where the real money is, because the real money is in licensing fees.  More hardware -> more licensing fees.  Whenever a console maker doesn't try to sell hardware with their first party software, they are making a huge mistake.



when you dont have a PS5, and feel like games shouldnt be...... but your happy they are? conflicted on it.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

One mistake you are making is that you aren't counting Sony's handhelds as Playstation devices.  The Playstation brand is actually not worth a whole lot.  The PS Vita proved just how much Playstation is worth as a brand: not much.  The games?  Those are the brands that matter.  It's God of War, Spider-Man, Uncharted, ect... that have real value and not the word "Playstation".  You may have bought a PS5 purely for the Playstation brand, but you are definitely in the minority.  Here is how well the PS5 can do on brand alone by region:

Japan: PS5 is not going to sell well here.  They like handhelds in Japan and third party games are now going more toward Switch and less toward Playstation.  
RoW: A fair amount of this category is other nations along the Pacific that have similar tastes to Japan.  Expect an outcome similar to Japan's here where Playstation loses ground to Switch.
North America: Video game brands don't mean a damn thing in North America.  PS2 was super popular in North America.  The next gen most of us flocked over to the XBox360.  Well, it just so happens that Microsoft just bought a bunch of game studios, and they are about to go all out on their E3 presentation.  Hell, Microsoft even goes all out when they have no exclusive games to show.  Just imagine what they'll do when they actually have exclusive games.  Meanwhile, Sony won't even be at E3 and we are instead talking about why you don't need to buy a PS5 because of cross-gen games.  North America is the market Sony should be worrying about.  They can lose a lot of ground in North America because of their cross-gen games.
Europe: They are likely to still do well in Europe.

PS5 is not going to get to 100m systems on Europe alone.  PS3 was the top home system in Europe, and they lost a boatload of money on the PS3.  PS5 is potentially in a worse position than PS3, because they are going to be down in Japan compared to PS3.  Microsoft is going to try their hardest to get a repeat of XBox360's success in North America.  That is what basically will determine how well PS5 does.  If Sony rests on their laurels, then they are going to lose North America again.

PS5 is only guaranteed two things: jack and squat.  They can't make a bunch of mistakes and then expect to sell over 100m systems.  Making their first party games cross-gen is a huge bone-headed mistake.  The purpose of first party titles is to sell new hardware.  It isn't to maximize software revenue.  It isn't even to make your customers happy about buying your system later.  The only smart way to make first party titles is with the intention of selling hardware.  For a console owner that is where the real money is, because the real money is in licensing fees.  More hardware -> more licensing fees.  Whenever a console maker doesn't try to sell hardware with their first party software, they are making a huge mistake.

Oooooh, you're one of THOSE people. 

Yeah I won't be responding to any of your posts from here on out. 



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android