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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Sony's U-turn - Should first party games be cross-gen?

 

Should new first party titles be cross-gen?

Yes, and I love that they are 13 22.41%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should be 8 13.79%
 
Sometimes, but generally they should not 26 44.83%
 
No, they should be for next gen only. 11 18.97%
 
Total:58
AkimboCurly said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Here's the primary question, does going cross gen change the scale or how the game functions? If the answer is no, then it doesn't really matter.

100% this is the heart of the issue from the consumer perspective.

And as I mentioned and has been argued again, the console sales perspective is pretty much a closed case. They're selling out everything they can make so the downsides that might normally exist are made redundant. 

I am inclined to think that the two primary routes that they can hold back next gen are:

1. CPU bottleneck. Not such an issue at 30fps (the fx-6300 manages above 30fps on Valhalla, Cyberpunk and sometimes can scrape 30fps in Flight Sim 2020), where the last gen consoles are still serviceable. But some cases where 60fps will be targeted on last gen... you have to worry. I'm looking at Halo Infinite and Battlefield 6 having large potential to have their ambitions cut short by a requirement to target 60fps on what was a low-end CPU from 2012...

2. Engine choice. I was interested to hear Ryse: Son of Rome brought up as a good example of an early-gen game which used cutting edge tech. We haven't seen anything like it yet this generation. The temptation as well to rely on BC mode to get your game on next gen rather than using a native port also rules out even making modest engine adjustments to bring in additional visual features. But the fact is that Ryse (and arguably Killzone: Shadow fall) were outliers does go to show that most of what were "next gen"-only games ran on old tech regardless. 

During the entire generation people stressed how bad the CPUs were in 8th gen consoles. But quite frankly, I thought they were fine because developers didn't care about pushing CPU. More often GPU bottleneck was the issue and it makes sense given graphics are often the focus. Even now with crossgen content, seems like developers are mostly struggling with GPU. Even with Cyberpunk it seems to me GPU was the real limiting factor in base console versions along with just being poorly optimized.

Modern engines tend to scale very well. I mean we see impressive games running on Switch. So unless the scale of next gen games is really beyond what 8th gen can handle, I think many games should be able to function as cross gen. UE5 is being hyped as next gen tech, but I anticipate it will work well on mobile and 8th consoles as well.



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Supply problems slowed PS5 production far below demand, so maybe it's a necessary choice to extend the period of cross-gen releases. BTW the offer is mainly aimed at existing PS4 user base, as the pandemic crisis forced Sony to kill production of old gen new units to use as much production capacity as possible for new gen. Ninty managed the supplies issue in this difficult period far better, but we must consider that mobile chips small die size helped it a lot, as far more can be made from each wafer, and also the NS smaller package helps logistics in such periods.



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the-pi-guy said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

"Of course games matter.  No one said otherwise.  The issue is exclusives probably don't.  No one is likely to switch to Xbox, just because PS4 is getting subpar versions of new games."

People are very likely to switch to X|S if these same games are on PS4.  They can say "hey I don't need a PS5 to play Spider-Man and God of War.  I'll buy an XBox for Gen 9 games so I can play those exclusives too."  I.e. people can alternate from one generation to the next.  Console loyalty is not really a thing, especially not in North America.  In North America, we pick a new company to win almost every generation.


"What matters is quality. Grand Theft Auto by itself is a bigger deal than all 1299 Vita games combined. That's what the Vita lacked. It basically had 3 even remotely notable games."

Every console has quality games, and that includes the Vita.  The Vita has Minecraft.  That is even bigger than GTA.  However Minecraft is not even remotely exclusive.  I know, personally, that the Vita has about a dozen games I'd enjoy if you ignore the fact that I can play these games on systems I already own.  The Vita lacks quality exclusives.


>Even the Wii U sold pretty well at first. 

"No it didn't. It had a decent launch, then it dropped off."

I think you just disagreed with me and agreed with me at the same time.  The PS5 will take longer than the Wii U to drop off, but it can drop off too.  It can't rest on its laurels.  No console can.



"MS literally was the one who said they were going to be making all games cross platform for the next two years, it's possible they changed their minds on that, but they're the ones who started the conversation.
Additionally, every one of their games is so far coming to PC."

You should know better than to take Microsoft at face value.  They lie about stuff all time time, especially to screw with their competition.  We'll see on June 13 if they "changed their mind" or not.

>People are very likely to switch to X|S if these same games are on PS4. 

I'm pretty sure we're finding that's not the case.

1.) Consoles often sell or don't sell for lots of reasons. PS3 didn't sell as well as it could have because it launched at $500-600 with very few games. 

2.) There's a difference between what is actually exclusive and what most people think are exclusive. Most consumers are not as informed as people who frequent forums. As an example Breath of the Wild. It released on the Wii U, yet most people are going to list it as a Nintendo Switch exclusive. Most people are probably going to do the same for a lot of these upcoming PS4/PS5 and XO/XS games. And Sony's marketing has been trying to go the extra mile to let people know that Horizon, God of War, etc are PS5 games.

3.) The average consumer also doesn't care about the same things. 9 out of the top 11 best selling Xbox 360 games are also available on PS3, PC. First party exclusives are rarely the biggest driver of sales.

>I think you just disagreed with me and agreed with me at the same time.  The PS5 will take longer than the Wii U to drop off, but it can drop off too.  It can't rest on its laurels.  No console can.

1.) There are several systems that had a decent launch, that dropped off very quickly after. But there aren't any systems that retained its sales for 8 months and then dropped off.

2.) Sony also isn't resting on its laurels. Just because most of their first party titles are going to be going to both platforms, doesn't mean the PS5 doesn't have exclusives. There are Final Fantasy XVI, Forspoken, another rumored Final Fantasy game, Returnal, Ratchet and Clank, Deathloop, Ghostwire, and those are just a few we know about right now, and there are likely more coming in the next couple weeks.

"There's a difference between what is actually exclusive and what most people think are exclusive. Most consumers are not as informed as people who frequent forums. As an example Breath of the Wild. It released on the Wii U, yet most people are going to list it as a Nintendo Switch exclusive. Most people are probably going to do the same for a lot of these upcoming PS4/PS5 and XO/XS games. And Sony's marketing has been trying to go the extra mile to let people know that Horizon, God of War, etc are PS5 games."

It's true that "most consumers are not as informed as people who frequent forums."  Most people don't know what's on the the Wii U, because only about 13m people owned a Wii U.  The PS4 has over 115m install base.  They'll know what's on the PS4 whenever they look at what the store has (either retail or online).  Then they'll realize they don't need a PS5.  What you describe as "most consumers" are the very same people who won't buy a PS5 when the same games are on the PS4.  If Sony wants to sell the PS5 to "most consumers", then they are going to need some games that people can't play on PS4.

"There are several systems that had a decent launch, that dropped off very quickly after. But there aren't any systems that retained its sales for 8 months and then dropped off."

Here are the total shipments of the N64 and PS1 at the end of their first full fiscal years:

PS1  4.3m
N64  16.13m

It really looks like the N64 is going to clobber the PS1 doesn't it?  And we aren't even this far along with the PS5 yet.  Basically, if the PS5 has this kind of lead even at March 31, 2022 then it still means absolutely nothing.  The shipments for PSP and DS for their first full fiscal years aren't quite as dramatic, but they still tell a similar story:

DS 16.72
PSP 17.1

This one is gonna be close, but we have to give it to PSP right?  Nope.  It's still too early to call by data alone.  Again this corresponds to March 31, 2022 for the PS5. 

Now, in either of these cases we could have looked at other factors to see if the winds were going to change.  For example, we could have seen that the CD Rom was drawing in more third party games for Sony and less for Nintendo.  Those first year sales for the N64 were based on expectations from the SNES era, since Nintendo did dominate in Gen 4.  But that also means PS5 is in the same boat.  It's doing well at first, because the PS4 did well.  But at the same time Sony is making mistakes with the PS5 and the competition is tougher this time around.  Cross-gen first-party games on PS5 are a dumb idea.  (So is a $500 price.)   Meanwhile, Microsoft just bought a bunch of studios and Nintendo's system is selling competitively with the top systems of all time.

PS5 is not guaranteed any kind of success.  No console gets a free ride.  They have to actually do things that will attract customers to the PS5.  So far, they aren't doing a whole lot.

Last edited by The_Liquid_Laser - on 06 June 2021

Kyuu said:

I don't know much about Flight Simulator but it's quite strange what they're doing to it. Like... why not apply those downgrades specifically on console versions? Or is it a live service sort of game where new areas/environments get frequently added (in which case it makes sense that they wouldn't keep developing two versions for each added area) I don't see why else they'd downgrade the existing PC version. Standard DQXI on PS4 and PC was never downgraded afaik.

I agree on learning curve and developers needing time to familiarize themselves with and adapt to new technologies, but Rift Apart which is coming out next week looks mad impressive to me (even though it has a 60fps RT mode), and it was developed by a studio working on multiple titles. I'd much rather they have GT7 delayed a year or two for something groundbreaking than be stuck with an outdated game throughout the generation. I do however understand that just because Insomniac managed to impress this early doesn't mean the other studios can; Returnal's visuals for instance did nothing to me (even though it is rendered in only 1080p internally. Looks like they wasted too much horse power on flashy particles!!). Different studios have different tools, engines, talents and aims.

DQXI is interesting because it's the perfect reference point demonstrating the differences between Remake (3DS vs PS4), "Demake" (Switch), and "lazy ports" (DQXIS PS4/X1/PC).

Hopefully the PS5 versions of the upcoming games will surprise me. Horizon 2 does look incredible for a CrossGen game!

Bingo, updates are mandatory and one of the most requested features is to make them optional (since they tend to cause problems every time). But yep, they want keep one version. What is strange is why they are locking out options to mod it back to original draw distance behavior. Some of the latest 'optimizations' have made it impossible to fix the tree LOD and other LOD issues.

GT7 will likely be updated and added to throughout the gen just like GT Sport. The question is, how long will the ps4 receive those updates and will the ps5 get updates that aren't possible on ps4. What I hope to see in GT7 on ps5 is dynamic time / weather and full psvr 2.0 support. Seasons would be a nice bonus, as well as multi-class endurance races with 100+ cars on track. But I need to manage my expectations, cause PD...



I'd prefer they not be.

PS5 and Xbox Series having almost no next gen exclusives is really killing any excitement I might have had for them, and when the Switch 2 arrives, I'd want games for it to go beyond what's possible on Switch 1 instead of still being bound by the limits of a mobile SoC from 2015.



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curl-6 said:

I'd prefer they not be.

PS5 and Xbox Series having almost no next gen exclusives is really killing any excitement I might have had for them, and when the Switch 2 arrives, I'd want games for it to go beyond what's possible on Switch 1 instead of still being bound by the limits of a mobile SoC from 2015.

I doubt there will be a "Switch 2"... what I expect to see is a Switch Pro of sorts and that will be around for the next 4-5 years.

_____________________________________________

As for Sony's "U-turn", I don't think sony saying they believe in generations and releasing cross-gen games are mutually exclusive.

Doing one does not mean you can not do the other.