Yeah I was talking about bosses not normal enemies. I use shields during the level. When I reach a fog gate I drop the shield and double hand my weapon for extra damage.

And rolling away doesn't work well. Roll past the boss. Stand on his hip, he swings, roll forward. Work those invincibility frames.

I struggled and hated the series, but once I learned some tricks I solo'd each game up to ng+4.

The games are not easy, but they aren't as hard as they are made out to be.

Oh it isn't. I'm not making that comparison to defend Dark Souls in the context of this thread (though I mostly don't agree with the criticism to begin with). I'm just curious about Mzuzek's opinion on Dark Souls since I find it to be an interesting one, and was using an example of a game I know he loves that does the same thing much worse to create a need for clarification in relation to the game. That is all.

Well, I am certainly in the minority on Ori so don't take my word for it, but you're welcome if it was a helpful opinion to hear. The second half of the game is particularly bad in my opinion and the game's combat never gets good, nor does it's movement ever feel quite right. 

First of all, there is nothing wrong with disliking a game or liking it less than other people. I can understand where you're coming from though when you say it can be hard to come to terms with liking something less than others. It's particularly frustrating because it happens so often for me, I really like the Final Fantasy games from a theoretical standpoint and can even say that I enjoyed the final products of the games I've played in the series, but nowhere near close to the extent of most critics and fans who praise them. To me, it feels like I am missing out on classic titles despite having played through the whole affair, and it sucks. Fear of missing out can be quite depressing, especially when you enjoy a lot of a games elements on-paper, but not so much in execution. 

The best I can do is say that at least you tried the game, and you gave it a decent shot numerous times, so that's all that can be said. I will say that trying games multiple times shouldn't be seen as a waste of effort - there's been many times where I couldn't get into a game at first, but ended up loving it once I finally did get into it (kind of struggling to think of examples, brainfarting right now, but it's definitely happened). I also haven't played Dark Souls in years and even when the HD remaster came out, I didn't really get back into it despite playing that version for a few hours. So it's possible that I wouldn't like the game much going back to it, hell anything is possible. 

What I love about Dark Souls, first and foremost, is how tight everything feels. The world, the combat, the leveling up system, and the decision making processes are amazingly designed and crafted. You can tell that everything in Dark Souls connects into a cohesive whole, and it's that design principle which I think makes the game so captivating. A great example that I wish more games would take queues from is the side quests. In a lot of RPGs, side quests are both obtuse (mostly in older titles) and not really a reflection on the games mechanics. Interacting with the world in most RPGs is incredibly awkward because there's a thick layer separating the game mechanics and how the plotline actually wants you to experience their stories, especially in older JRPGs. Dark Souls, on the other hand, has most of it's decision making processes handled through the same gameplay mechanics you use throughout the entire game, and the results of these subplots directly effect the world through and through. Often whether or not you complete a sidequest one way or another is accomplished by killing an NPC, summoning an ally or enemy NPC in an obscure location, or finding hidden areas ... which are all things you already do throughout the entire game, anyways. Being able to kill an important NPC to change the atmosphere of entire area is one of the most memorable parts of the game for me. What's great too is that a lot of sidequests have somewhat obtuse continuations, but since the entire game is built around secrets and exploring your environment, and since you usually get different rewards at each tier of a sidequest, it is still a wholly satisfying experience even completing one part of a longer chain of events. 

I think it's important to note that, for me and probably a lot of people, playing Dark Souls a few years or so after launch when it was first becoming a huge game online (around mid-late 2013 for me, I think it's popularity started to skyrocket around 2012 or so) was like being part of a grander experience. Dark Souls takes a lot of the obtuse nature of older games and makes it into an intended mechanic that actually makes me less frustrated with the game. You know how annoying it is to look things up in older games because you don't know how to progress, only to either A ) feel like a moron because the answer was seemingly obvious or B ) feel completely annoyed because the answer was something you could have never guessed? Well, Dark Souls has the hint system just for that, and better yet even if you do go down the wrong path, the game almost encourages it because there's a lot of great loot and gear you can find in those areas. I wouldn't ever feel bad about looking up anything in a Souls game, because the hint system is already there to show that the game designers understand and even accept the modern reality of the internet guide machine. Or how about the co-op system? To this day most singleplayer-oriented games, hell most multiplayer-capable games in general, can't make a player feel accomplished for completing a task with a random person on their team. I love multiplayer games, but unless the game mechanics are really satisfying, it can be hard for me to get sucked into the moment knowing that I'm just with a bunch of randoms (and this is despite the vast majority of my time with online multiplayer games being solo).  Dark Souls is one of the only games that can really make you feel connected to other players just through the sheer sense of pride and accomplishment that comes out of beating a tough boss. The only other game that I think can really compare in this regard is Monster Hunter, despite many games implementing Souls-like mechanics since. 

All of these reasons and more are why I'm a bit saddened by the consistent referral to new games in the series over Dark Souls (and I'm sure I'd feel this way about Demon's Souls too ... if I had a chance to play it). I get that games like Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 are more accessible, and for someone like you who's already tried Dark Souls and didn't like it it would probably be more worth your time either trying later games or just not playing the series in general, but for me I don't think I'll ever fall in love with a Souls game quite as much as Dark Souls. Those later games just focused so much on just combat that they actively forgot a lot of the other appealing aspects of the original. Dark Souls 3 is kind of a return to form in this regard, with a much higher emphasis on RPG elements like the original, but it makes the mistake of retreading every idea ever introduced from Demon's Souls-Bloodborne, so much so that it often feels unoriginal. 

Also as previously mentioned, the verticality of Dark Souls map is amazing and the density of it is almost second to none. If I could create the most bullshit subgenre imaginable, then AAA Metroidvania games would probably be the best subgenre ever. Games like Dark Souls, Metroid Prime and REmake remind me why I love video games. It's as simple as that.

Yep, rolling past then keep running was my strategy lol.

@AngryLittleAlchemist I never had a problem with obtuse game mechanics, Everquest being my favorite game of all time. There you couldn't even tell where the quests were, you had to say the right key words to an npc to even get a quest started. The only 'problem' with dark souls was that it never warns you of its completely different approach to stats and happily lets you 'upgrade' yourself into a dead end. Hence I started over after 20 hours since the amount of souls I needed to 'fix' my stats to where I could use better weapons and spells had gone up exponentially.

I have to disagree with not feeling stupid or cheated after looking things up. Maybe the hint system wasn't working right but I couldn't find the way to the lower depths for the longest time and was stuck with a spiked wooden club in Darkroot garden, not able to use anything better.

I had missed the door probably due to the dragon popping out at you there and/or dismissed it as just another painted on door. I had the key for ages, just never found the door until I looked it up making me feel stupid. Same with the Capra Demon which was especially frustrating since I had not found the closer bonfire yet (dragon in the way, plus didn't look safe to drop down). I kept getting killed by the dogs, solution take the hints sprint to a spot in the back out of reach of the AI pathing... It's just bad design.

Same with the co-op. I started the game later and mostly ended up getting matched with people that were already on NG++++++ or something. I got no where with the Belltower Gargoyle, finally resorted to co-op, dude shows up, kills it in 2 blows. One of the most disappointing experiences in 20 years of video games. and then the annoying invasions during co-op, 20 attempts to reach Ornstein and Smough foiled by invasions of vastly outmatched opponents. 

Despite all that, I loved the game for single player exploration. Without the bosses and the online nonsense, the game was sublime. Getting lost in the lower depths was amazing. Carefully mapping out the the environments in my head, getting a little further each try. Magical place to explore, awesome map design all interconnected, no need for fast travel. To me Dark souls has the best map/world ever created in a video game.

I got Nioh collection on Ps5 and have the Code Vein complete edition on PS4. Tell me, are they good? Anything I need to know before I start? I hear very good things about Nioh and pretty good things about Code Vein but I haven't played them yet. 

@Bolded I really don't think our taste in games is so drastically different that it should garner that kind of response, though. Reminds me of the time I posted a mini-review to no one in particular in the games beat thread in which I stated my opinion on Okami and you seemed to get a bit mad. I still like Okami, just not as much as you. But I love games like Hollow Knight, any of the Metroid games, the Zelda games are quite great. And I hyped up Astral Chain before it was cool (though the final project is somewhat disappointing). I even share almost the same exact sentiments as you when it comes to Nier Automata and it's praise.

If our taste was so little alike that I actually couldn't relate to your takes at all, I would probably not find them as interesting. That's why I asked for clarification on Ori, because I do relate enough to your viewpoints to find where we diverge intriguing. It should be a good thing to have different opinions, not inherently a negative thing. But honestly this isn't the thread to discuss Ori, I shouldn't have brought it up. Was just curious.

I don't really agree with most of this, either  because I just didn't have that experience, or because I don't mind mechanics being intrusive or annoying at times if it can contribute to interesting ideas. But I can accept them as criticisms. My point with the hints is more so not only are they a cool addition, but I think they also liberate the player to feel free to look up stuff about the game (if they want to) without feeling stupid. The developers already put a "cheat" system in the game basically, mentally I don't think anyone should feel bad for looking up information on the game, after all they could only make the cheat system so detailed. 

What I do kind of agree with is bosses, but only to an extent. Again, haven't played the game in forever so maybe this is a criticism that I'll have to retract, but watching someone play the game recently I kind of forgot how many bosses are just kind of eh at best and bad at worst. I think that back when "Dark Souls is hard!" was a meme and a lot of people accused the game of being unfair, I used to get so fixated on the fact that the bosses "weren't even that hard" to the point that I didn't give as much blame to the poorly designed bosses as I probably should have. The Capra Demon is pretty bad, Bed of Chaos is awful, the bridge Taurus Demon is the kind of boss that isn't "bad" per say but it's such an unfun boss to fight that I wonder why they even have it in the game, Four Kings is kind of similar although not nearly as flawed. Seath's is annoying from what I remember. That being said, I do think it's reasonable to say that most of the bad bosses in Dark Souls, are at the very least easy enough to where their badness isn't too big of a problem (at least again going off memory). And really, most of them are more mediocre than pure garbage. It still sucks that there are so many bosses that I can't call good, but then again I've never really liked the way in which people just look at Souls games as purely boss-oriented. Gwyn is one of the coolest final bosses in games for me, Bell Gargoyles are awesome, Gravelord Nito is good stuff, Ornstein and Smough deserve their reputation (I'll admit the bonfire should have been closer probably), Pinwheel is a very intriguing design with one of the most bizarre tracks in the game, Moonlight Butterfly is very elegant and a pretty good example of the game designers prioritizing a unique experience over purely making everything challenging, Sif is a legend all to it's own, Iron Golem has some cool mechanics tied to him, and the Gaping Dragon is probably my favorite boss in the entire game and one of the most memorable in gaming for me.  And that's not to mention one of the side bosses are among the better ones in the game. 

The sewers in Dark Souls are probably one of my favorite locations in a game ever. That's a very weird sentence to say, because sewers in games are just constantly shit (pun not intended) and some of the most boring padding you'll find. But that's just the power of Dark Souls level design. 

The thing with looking things up is, it breaks immersion and it's very easy to get spoilers with the info you're looking for. The in game hint system was more intrusive to me, either they were spoilers or trolling messages. It's all up to chance I guess, same as everyone has a different experience with Journey. It's a shame you can't configure the online in DS, the ghost images were a great idea, the message good idea but depends too much on people using it right and really if used right, it's just a bunch of spoilers to help you avoid fallen for the next cheap death which shouldn't be in there in the first place.

The thing with the bosses in DS is, the only ones I still have memories off are the ones that pissed me off the most. Most of the names you listed there don't even ring a bell for me. I was always glad to get to go back to the game after a boss obstacle. Orstein and Smoug I remember for the frustration getting to them through invasions, don't really remember the actual bosses. They were big I guess, one had a hammer?

What I do remember fondly is sparring with a tower night for 20 minutes, using the terrain to stay alive, playing cat and mouse between pillars, finally getting him down with only a sliver of health left myself. Falling off the bridge in Sen's fortress (where the swinging blades are) and surviving to get into a careful war of attrition to find a way out / back up. (To just fall off the bridge again repeatedly cause 3D perspective was crap, eff those swinging blades, I suck at timing)

The sewers were great, painted world of Aramis was great, the blight was great despite the slow downs, Ash lake (just getting there wow), tomb of the giants, new Londo ruins, so many great places. Great level design, but needs a skip boss option. I never minded getting killed while exploring, yet getting killed during a boss fight and having to go back over and over, firmly stepped over the line.

It's the best game with some of the worst game play design imo. I fondly remember it, but will never touch it again. (as long as the bosses can't be skipped)

I agree with your post, except for the last part. I can only assume that you haven't tried proper tank and turtle builds.

Heavy armors = higher Poise, which means your attacks won't be interrupted even if you take damage during the animation. It is an op in DS1 and 2. In DS3 it was changed to something more complicated, but also effective when using heavy weapons (hyper armor)

Turtle build is all about blocking with a high stability shield and poking with a spear. The defence would be unbreakable if the player knows what is he doing, especially with the right buffing spells.

Heavy builds are as viable as any other imo.

Tank can work but (imho) requires putting stats heavy into equipment load which makes other stats deficient.

Most everything in souls can be done, I find it easiest to go dex build with light armor.

it's so weird how different I feel the game. Like, after playing Bloodborne I preferred dodge-heavy combat but could never strike that balance in Dark Souls 1 so I opted for a shield. Did a lot of good. Then I got better and returned to dodge-heavy combat. 

I do love how versatile the game is.