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Forums - Politics Discussion - Question to non-Americans

 

My Countries Education System Teaches our history accurately.

Strongly Agree 16 21.62%
 
Somewhat Agree 29 39.19%
 
Neutral 7 9.46%
 
Somewhat Disagree 14 18.92%
 
Strongly Disagree 8 10.81%
 
Total:74
PDF said:
Flilix said:

Well, I got a Belgian history course at university where there was a chapter on the colony. I don't remember whether or not I learned it in secondary school as well. It could be that we didn't, but we skipped over more important stuff as well. It could be argued that Leopold II's Congo is a notable part of Belgian history, but it could also be argued that it actually wasn't all that relevant (because these things happened on a different continent, also because they had little influence on anything else that we'd learn about, and also because the colony was privately owned by the king and had no ties to Belgium).

We did extensively analyse the song We Didn't Start The Fire by Billy Joel in the 6th year, in which the murder of Patrice Lumumba was mentioned.

I understand the logic that it doesn't really feel like Belgium's history because as you said it happened on a different continent and it's now a different country. However, I think with that logic you could freely omit most foreign intervention from the history books.  

There was a ton of wealth generated in Belgium at the cost of the Congolese. This seems like a significant omission, especially for a country with only a couple hundred years of history. At least I understand if the UK or France were to examine colonization in school it would take forever because they practically colonized the whole world. Still, it does surprise me to hear some people from the colonial powers not to tackle colonization at all. Many problems in the world today are rooted in their colonial history.

Once again the US is not innocent in this. While we have become better at recognizing the genocide of Native Americans when colonization first took place on the continent. We still ignore the terrible acts the US engaged in as we moved westward and claimed more land. 

That raises the question, why would we focus on national history anyways? If we measure events purely by inherent importance, then we should learn stuff from all over the world instead of just our own country or continent, and then all European countries should learn as much about eachothers colonies as about their own. But if we measure the value of events in relation to their relevance to us (in what way did the things and structures we know get formed, and how well do the events fit in our general story?), then how important are the colonies to us?

I don't know to which degree the 'tons of wealth' were actually important to Belgium. My Belgian History textbook only mentions the following things about Congolese finances: 1) In the first years the colony was privately owned by Leopld II (with no official ties to Belgium), so the money went to him personally instead of the state. 2) After the Belgian state bought Congo in 1908, the 'free state' was restored which meant that it was mostly exploited by private international companies. 3) The book also says this: "The Belgian and Congolese treasuries were strictly seperated, to avoid that Belgium would have to fill financial shortages in Congo or would have to 'pay' for Congo in any way. After all, there was still little enthusiasm among the Belgian citizens for the colonial project."

Either way, my point is that if schools skip this, it's rather because of a lack of time than because of an intentional omission of the 'bad history'. I'm pretty sure we also skipped the whole pillarisation, even though it was a very important part of Belgian society and still has effects today. We only had 2 years / 2 hours per week to learn about everything that happened in the last 250 years, so it was mostly just a string of major political events (French Revolution, Napoleon, Belgian Revolution, French-German War, World War 1, Russian Revolution, Interwar struggles, World War 2, Cold War...)



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Ka-pi96 said:

English here. Let's see...

We learnt about the Roman Invasion and Boudica. Although I suppose we (the Anglo-Saxons) were still in Denmark/northern Germany at the time so it isn't even our history.
1066. Can't remember learning much if anything about the build up, but definitely learnt about William and the Harolds.
The crusades. Not a lot about the crusades though, mostly just Richard the Lionheart's participation in them.
The black death. Can't remember much about what we were taught, but it was taught.
The English Civil War. Made Ollie look like a good guy and I guess by being anti-monarchy he kind of was so that's not necessarily wrong. They did leave out the Irish genocide though so they did leave out some of the bad stuff there.
World War 2. This got a LOT of attention. Way too much IMO. To the point where WW2 will forever be boring to me now. I get that it was relatively recent and it was a huge war, but it was only 6 years long. Why should like 80% of our history education only cover a 6 year long period? Perhaps the worst part is that WW1 was completely ignored too. That was also pretty recent, and even one of the direct causes of WW2, but nope, let's just completely skip over that and forget it even happened. Didn't learn anything about WW1 until an optional College course about Germany history.

So yeah, I'd say our history education was accurate. It didn't really lie about things. Some things were missed out, but that was true of both good and bad things. It was mind of propagandafied though. Not so much in the sense of trying to make things appear better than they were, but more like it was designed by somebody with a massive boner for WW2 who wanted everybody else to share his fanatical obsession with it.

Didn't even learn about the Vikings invasion or that half of your country was once known as Danelaw.   That the normans who were pretty much Vikings invaded and conquered the Saxons.  



sethnintendo said:

Didn't even learn about the Vikings invasion or that half of your country was once known as Danelaw.   That the normans who were pretty much Vikings invaded and conquered the Saxons.  

We did get the Viking raids in the Netherlands. However, I think it was mostly a 'friendly' version of history that we got. For example with the Vikings, sure they raided (and pillaged, raped and killed) but the focus was on their great excursions and where they reached. Same with the Romans and everything else in old times, always focusing on the victors, even the crusades were a fun excursion... Except the Spanish inquisition, couldn't really spin a positive on that one. Kinda funny, crusades were good but then in the dark ages religion became the villain that never recovered. The Dutch colonies were all people fleeing from religious prosecution after all...



SvennoJ said:
sethnintendo said:

Didn't even learn about the Vikings invasion or that half of your country was once known as Danelaw.   That the normans who were pretty much Vikings invaded and conquered the Saxons.  

We did get the Viking raids in the Netherlands. However, I think it was mostly a 'friendly' version of history that we got. For example with the Vikings, sure they raided (and pillaged, raped and killed) but the focus was on their great excursions and where they reached. Same with the Romans and everything else in old times, always focusing on the victors, even the crusades were a fun excursion... Except the Spanish inquisition, couldn't really spin a positive on that one. Kinda funny, crusades were good but then in the dark ages religion became the villain that never recovered. The Dutch colonies were all people fleeing from religious prosecution after all...

I'm all for people believing in whatever they want to believe in.  However, I know there was good reason to punish certain beliefs.  Take for instance the Puritans.  They should have all been killed before allowing to escape to America.  We are still dealing with Puritan laws in USA called the blue laws.  Can't buy liquor in most states on Sunday except at a bar -contradictory.  Can't buy beer on Sunday till after 12pm because supposed to be in church.



My country, Switzerland, was the laughing 3rd in WWII, whole Europe was crashed but the Nazis and Jews had their money in our Swiss banks. Obviously, the Nazis couldn't attack the one country that stashed their money. Of course, the Swiss bank played their evil part in the aftermath and kept the money of the murdered Jews and didn't want to know anything of their surviving dependants who would have a rightful claim of the money. Of course, they wanted to keep it for themselves. In recent times, Switzerland payed hundreds of millions to the Jews as reparation.

Despite the evil part the Swiss banks and some other Swiss players played in WWII I think Switzerland, a tiny little country, did act correctly during WWII in order to not be completely destroyed by a gigantic and powerful Nazi regime. And anybody thinking otherwise, should go and *beep* themselves, or better, should be dropped out into the crossfire of a battlefield!



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SvennoJ said:
sethnintendo said:

Didn't even learn about the Vikings invasion or that half of your country was once known as Danelaw.   That the normans who were pretty much Vikings invaded and conquered the Saxons.  

We did get the Viking raids in the Netherlands. However, I think it was mostly a 'friendly' version of history that we got. For example with the Vikings, sure they raided (and pillaged, raped and killed) but the focus was on their great excursions and where they reached. Same with the Romans and everything else in old times, always focusing on the victors, even the crusades were a fun excursion... Except the Spanish inquisition, couldn't really spin a positive on that one. Kinda funny, crusades were good but then in the dark ages religion became the villain that never recovered. The Dutch colonies were all people fleeing from religious prosecution after all...

Well, there's often also a lot of truth to the 'friendly' version of history as well. The middle ages are often depicted as a violent and dark period, while the reality is a lot more nuanced. This is especially true for the Vikings, who are usually seen as some of the most violent and brutal people in history, while in reality they weren't really all that different from others and were actually mostly concerned with trade. It makes sense that schools would react to this by highlighting their more positive sides.

Btw, the term 'dark ages' is a (rather negative) synonym for the early middle ages, which are roughly the years 500-1000. The crusades only started a century after that.



Ka-pi96 said:
SvennoJ said:

We did get the Viking raids in the Netherlands. However, I think it was mostly a 'friendly' version of history that we got. For example with the Vikings, sure they raided (and pillaged, raped and killed) but the focus was on their great excursions and where they reached. Same with the Romans and everything else in old times, always focusing on the victors, even the crusades were a fun excursion... Except the Spanish inquisition, couldn't really spin a positive on that one. Kinda funny, crusades were good but then in the dark ages religion became the villain that never recovered. The Dutch colonies were all people fleeing from religious prosecution after all...

The crusades were towards the end of the dark ages though. The dark ages were the period from the fall of the western Roman Empire, up until the start of the renaissance.

Ah, I'm mistaken with the Roman invasion of Jerusalem, that was all told as part of the great expansion of Roman empire. You're right, the crusades are in the dark ages. I don't think we covered that, which might explain the crossed wires in my memory :/ The 11th century is all a bit hazy, rather a big gap from the 6th century to the Mongols arriving in the 13th century. It was simply the dark ages in between, nothing happened. (except the actual crusades lol, and well the viking raids)

Finding out things about the quality of your education is very interesting.



Canada here. Mostly talked about the comparatively peaceful interactions with Canada British compared to natives. But we still leaned about colonialism and reservations etc. Slavery of course discussed and causes of both world wars. Looking back it all seemed neutral, the texts didn’t shame either side, it just told the events as they happened. 

In regards to the US, it makes sense to paint a more positive picture of the past while acknowledging the negatives at the same time. The US became a global superpower and the road there should be acknowledged.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Ka-pi96 said:

I certainly wouldn't say that. An awful lot happened. Charlemagne conquered a big chunk of Europe, before his empire shattered after his death and laid the foundations for modern day France and Germany, the muslims conquered Iberia, then the christians conquered Iberia off of them leading to Portugal and Spain's existence. The vikings had a pretty huge impact throughout Europe. It was also the period that saw the decline and ultimate end of the eastern Roman Empire (thanks in large part to the crusades, actually). Also, it was only really a dark age for christian Europe. It was a bit of a golden age for the islamic world where they were at the forefront of medicine and science.

See, all skipped, I had to look up what Iberia is. We did get a bit of the decline of the Eastern Roman Empire, yet most of it was local history in that period. The feudal system was discussed a lot, but only locally. The Islamic world was only really discussed in ancient times with Egypt and Mesopotamia. Well, actually is was never discussed since Islam wasn't around until the 7th century. (Islam was discussed in religion class) Just like China only got attention before the Romans were around, then only some bits when Marco Polo came around.

There is a lot to cover, 2 hours of history per week definitely didn't cut it. From Neanderthals to 7 billion people with over 10,000 religions, 6,500 languages in between.

The style of teaching wasn't very engaging either. It was mostly the teacher writing down facts, copied from a text book, which we had to copy down ourselves. Then learn those by heart to answer questions in a test. It was rather boring. I say discussed, but actually there was no discussion. Addressed is a better term. My English teacher was better at teaching history taking us to see a play of Hamlet!

I'm 'discovering' a lot more about history right now while playing FS2020. I'm flying around the world and check out the places visit on Google maps, check out the local museums and old buildings. Yesterday I learned the Dutch also had colonies in India from a Dutch-Armenian cemetery in Surat. Nagpur was the geographical center of India where the zero milestone is from where British Raj measured distances in India. And also seeing the Pakistan-India split portrayed from both sides in local exhibits. Now that's a good way to teach history!

Of course none of that was around when I was in school, long before the internet and flight sims. (fs 1.0 just came around) We had textbooks and a library with encyclopedias to look things up. Yet mostly it was just copying down what the teacher copied down from the textbooks, while having the rest of the textbook as reference.



Pemalite said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah I'm in Victoria, and originally from a redneck country town. One of my teachers legit said the Stolen Generation only "allegedly" happened.

Time to tell that teacher to take a hike and get a real one.

I wish I had, but I was always too scared of getting in trouble. He was a real dickhead.

Attitudes like that are sadly not uncommon in rural towns like the one I grew up in. I like it so much better here in Melbourne, where people in general are more tolerant and informed and not stuck decades in the past.