Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why do people think the Ps5 costs more to manufacture?!

Fei-Hung said:
Random_Matt said:
$450 apparently, Dram and nand flash driving up cost.

Any idea what the cost of dram and nand are? 

Couldn't say, fluctuates a lot considering the demand and pandemic. But Bloomberg say $450, and Zhuge says XSX is between $460-$520. So yeah, PS5 will not be $499, I say $449 and potentially $399. The digital could then go $299/$349, Sony could potentially make both Xboxes completely redundant.



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jenpol said:
Do we have a confirmation that PS5 is not a zen 3 NAVI 2?

Since AMD announcing something in October, maybe there is more than the CU numbers.

Both consoles are effectively using a mobile 3700X, Navi 2 is very akin to navi 1 with RT slapped on. Of course they have put more CU's in though.



Random_Matt said:
Fei-Hung said:

Any idea what the cost of dram and nand are? 

Couldn't say, fluctuates a lot considering the demand and pandemic. But Bloomberg say $450, and Zhuge says XSX is between $460-$520. So yeah, PS5 will not be $499, I say $449 and potentially $399. The digital could then go $299/$349, Sony could potentially make both Xboxes completely redundant.

That's just the console manufacturing. It increases due to power cord, HDMI cable, Dual Sense controller, Dual Sense charging cord, packaging, shipping, and retailer cut. All of that will add up to $530 at minimum assuming that $450 cost is right.



Sogreblute said:
Random_Matt said:

Couldn't say, fluctuates a lot considering the demand and pandemic. But Bloomberg say $450, and Zhuge says XSX is between $460-$520. So yeah, PS5 will not be $499, I say $449 and potentially $399. The digital could then go $299/$349, Sony could potentially make both Xboxes completely redundant.

That's just the console manufacturing. It increases due to power cord, HDMI cable, Dual Sense controller, Dual Sense charging cord, packaging, shipping, and retailer cut. All of that will add up to $530 at minimum assuming that $450 cost is right.

Perhaps, but that is the same for MS with that stuff. Sony will eat the extra controller tech cost. We will see, I'm pretty confident they will undercut MS.



I'd guess the SSD. They're expensive for consumers already, being the new hot tech part to have. Then you have MS with a somewhat custom version, which you would think is more expensive yet. Then SNY with some highly customized super future SSD tech beyond what MS has, which may seem to be, well, super expensive. The rest of the tech shouldn't be all much different in terms of cost between the two, so even if XBSX is more costly in that case, the PS5 SSD would be a big cost that bridged that gap and exceeded it. There is also the question of the PSVR break out box and whether that tech will get baked into the PS5 console hardware or not. May not be much extra, yet another cost to take into account.

If you didn't take into account the engineering SNY does themselves, the mass manufactured discounts, new efficient PS5 manufacturing, etc, it could seem like PS5 may cost more to make. Do they also know the consoles are typically loss leading products?



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More expensive? I
Probably not. Around the same? Absolutely.

The entirety of the ssd solution is new, not just the ssd itself. The controller. The cooling solution and... The most obvious yet least mentioned... The case. A small difference but a difference non the less.

Looks considerably more complex and layered than the simple but effective series X case.

BOM is within $20 of each other, without a doubt.



Fei-Hung said:

Also, why not just put the psu outside for burn consoles if it saves heat and cost? Is there a reason why people prefer it all internal?

a) it requires extra casing

b) extra casing requires additional cooling solution

c) extra casing requires additional rfi certification

d) extra casing requires additional plugs/cables

e) extra casing requires additional supply chain management

Hint for you: Every time you see the word "additional", it means "adds costs to the product"

Last edited by drkohler - on 13 September 2020

EricHiggin said:

I'd guess the SSD.

Your guess is largely wrong. There is one factor, the cost of the PS5 ssd. This basically is 12 generic, lower speed 512GBit nvrams. If you check the semiconductor spot market (where neither Sony nor MS buys its stuff because too expensive), that's probably around $24 (on good day) - $30. That is roughly the manufacturing cost. The other factor that drives costs is the develoment of  the entire I/O-system. The whole data chain in the SoC plus the front-end ssd controller (a rather "cheap" custom one as there is no dram memory involved, that sits in the PS5 SoC as sram).

How much does the second factor add to the cost of the ssd? Roll the dices, only Sony knows. If it worked the first try, add $100M, if it was a total mess, add $500M. So for 50M consoles, add $2-$10 to the ssd cost. Then add the usual bureaucracy costs and you end up around $40 for the ssd. From a bill of material costs viewpoint, this is significantly more expensive than a low-end $23 harddisk. From a shoppers viewpoint who pays $189.99 at the store for a similar pc ssd, it's dirt cheap.



Fei-Hung said:

AMD processor cost

mfrom what I've read so far, the x1sx has 30% more CU that will probably increase the cost of the X1sx whilst the argument for the ps5 is the higher clock rates will increase yield deficiency and Sony will have to eat up the cost. However, everything we've heard so far poibts to yields being great for the ps5. The difference in cost surely is massively in favour for the ps5 as having 30% more CUs won't come at a $5-10 difference will it?! Also, correct me if I'm wrong but more CUs also could mean higher yield deficiencies and we've heard nothing from the xbox camp to say otherwise. 

Result: cheaper for ps5

The chip manufacturing cost isn't that simple to quantify.

Whilst you are most certainly on the money that the larger the chip, the more it costs to manufacture... But sometimes when you take a smaller chip and drive up the clockrates and voltages like Sony has done, you end up with chip "leakage" which is where electrons leak from one part of the chip to another, which does decrease chip yields and thus increase costs.

My point is, it's really difficult to assert whether the Playstation 5 chip is cheaper to manufacture when Sony has dialed in the clocks... But as TSMC matures it's manufacturing process and improves the electrical characteristics of that particular fabrication node, then Sony will certainly have a cost advantage... But right now, it's difficult to tell.

Fei-Hung said:

RAM: same ram, but faster on the x1sx. 

Result: same for both or near enough the same

Sony is pushing it's 16GB GDDR6 on a 256-bit bus.
Microsoft is pushing it's 16GB GDDR6 on a 192-320bit memory bus, which is definitely going to require more PCB layers and traces.

Microsoft's approach will definitely cost more.

Fei-Hung said:

Cooling solution: x1x won't go with a cheap solution. Possibly use the same colling solution as the X1X. Ps5 won't use mercury cooling, but cheaper alternative with a casing they have designed. 

Result: cheaper on x1sx, but will it really be $40-50 more expensive?! 

We have already seen the cooling solution the Xbox Series X is using.
They are both likely using vapor chamber cooling, the Xbox Series X's entire "design" is actually based around the cooler to keep everything consolidated and efficient.

I doubt there is much in the way of pricing differences between the two however.

Fei-Hung said:

SSD: my understanding is they both use the same SSD, but how it connects is different. Ps5 has more lanes and esram I think. The tech used isn't new and expensive, its been out together by existing tech. The Esram is probably the cost differentiator, but then the xb1sx is paying for an additional 175GB of SSD. 

Result: in my head at least anyway, the x1sx as the cost of the additional 175gb will out weigh the cost of the esram and other bits. 

They both use NAND. That is the only aspect they are the "same" in.
Neither uses eSRAM.

The Playstation 5's SSD is definitely more costly, it's using more memory chips and it's implemented them on a wider memory bus with a more intricate memory controller which will require more PCB traces, Sony did attempt to scale back the cost by reducing the amount of NAND capacity.

SSD is definitely more expensive for the Playstation 5.

Fei-Hung said:

Controller: people assume there is a lot of new tech in the dual sense, but in reality it's just a DS4 with a cheap ass mic that they usually throw in for free in the earphones and they have replaces the rumble with haptic feedback. Everything else is from the DS4, and the haptic feedback alone is less new tech than going from DS3 to DS4, which had the light bar, touch controller, new rumble, speaker and headphone jack. 

Results: same as they are both using mostly same tech

Agreed.

Fei-Hung said:

Outside of these differences I think there are 2 more factors to take into consideration:

Manufacturing: we know Sony not so long ago finished building their own state of the art manufacting factory. If sony is building a lot of these themselves they will save massively on manufacturing. Some how I find it hard to believe they would build this facility for the ps4 knowing the ps5 is coming out. 

Result: cheaper for sony

Sony does need to recoup the hundreds of millions spent on that plant, the initial investment will take awhile to break even.

Foxconn has proven to be very cost effective for manufacturers.

Fei-Hung said:

Result: cheaper for sony

Overall: everything points to a cheaper cost to Sony. 

Again people, this is not about console waring, this is about understanding where the costs might be for either machine and why. 

I think they are both closer than you might think.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

drkohler said:
Fei-Hung said:

Also, why not just put the psu outside for burn consoles if it saves heat and cost? Is there a reason why people prefer it all internal?

a) it requires extra casing

b) extra casing requires additional cooling solution

c) extra casing requires additional rfi certification

d) extra casing requires additional plugs/cables

e) extra casing requires additional supply chain management

Hint for you: Every time you see the word "additional", it means "adds costs to the product"

It is injeted plastic, I don't think it will cost as much as you think it will. And Not sure why you think it is extra casing just because it have a lot of curves and possibly a little more volume than Series X. We have plenty electronics with bigger size and oddier style still it isn't the plastic that make the cost grow.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

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Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

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