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Forums - Sports Discussion - 2022 NBA Offseason - Rest in Peace Bill Russell

Ben Simmons had a shocker series but I still believe he can be a future immortal just needs to work on his shooting



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Pinkie_pie said:

Ben Simmons had a shocker series but I still believe he can be a future immortal just needs to work on his shooting

Thing is, Ben Simmons doesn't actually want to work on his shooting.

"I am who I am, it is what it is."

That's his attitude. That's who he is.



burninmylight said:
KLAMarine said:

I hate how Giannis injured Kyrie. Dirty.

Yeah, how dare he get in position for a potential rebound and get his feet set under the goal while Kyrie flares his limbs out like Pac-Man's death/KO animation!

Want to know who disagrees with us? Kyrie's coach: https://clutchpoints.com/nets-news-steve-nash-reveals-true-feelings-on-giannis-antetokounmpo-move-that-injured-kyrie-irving/

Watched replay, Kyrie wasn't flailing or anything. Giannis did him dirty. The only consolation for me is how Durant benefited from Zaza injuring Kawhi in 2017 and now it went against him.



burninmylight said:
Shaunodon said:

And how exactly is it a result of them being a super team? If Middleton was injured and Holiday was playing on one league, you believe the Bucks still win this series?

One team was healthy and one team wasn't. During the first 5 games, the Bucks played so awfully I thought just having Harden on the floor would be enough for Nets to still progress. During the last 2 games though, the Bucks and Giannis in particular made the adjustments they needed to play more like people expected them to. The Nets also had great shooters who went completely cold at the worst time. It's not like the right guys weren't out there on the floor, getting open shots when they needed. All that said, Durant was still an inch away from having one of the greatest series wins in NBA history, as far as his performances.

Also, I don't know how bad Harden's hamstring was affecting him. All I know is I've seen him in big playoff games before and his performances didn't look too different.

"And how exactly is it a result of them being a super team?"

I'll tell you how. They traded away great depth in guys like Caris Levert and Jarrett Allen to make room for Harden a year after spending all of their cap space on Irving, Durant and the ghost of DeAndre Jordan. So outside of Joe Harris and Spencer Dinwiddie, the rest of the roster is made up of minimum salary guys you can get from a scrap heap like Mike James, Tyler Johnson and TLC, guys on rookie contracts like Nic Claxton, and vets that may or may not be washed up, but definitely well past their prime like Jeff Green and Blake Griffin.

Not saying it was a bad plan. Any team in the league would have and should have done it, but as LudicrousSpeed was alluding to, when you're a top-heavy team like Brooklyn and those stars go down, it hurts you far more than a roster with a bit more depth. The only reason the series even came down to seven games, let alone OT in Game 7, was due to the pure brilliance of Durant. If he was the one that rolled his ankle or pulled his hamstring instead of Irving or Harden, it would have been over quicker.

"During the first 5 games, the Bucks played so awfully I thought just having Harden on the floor would be enough for Nets to still progress."

"Also, I don't know how bad Harden's hamstring was affecting him."

Nope. Up until Game 7, the home team in each games played well, and the road team didn't. You're probably basing your opinion on Game 2, where the Nets beat the crap out of the Bucks, but I will remind you of Game 4, where it was the other way around (don't let the final score fool you).

Ragarding Harden, did you actually watch Game 5, or at least look at a box score?

James Harden: 1-10 FG, 0-8 3PA, five points total, eight assists and four turnovers in 46 minutes. He absolutely hurt his team. He did finish with a +4 plus/minus, but chalk that up to spending so much time on the floor with Durant.

Game 6: 5-9 FG, 3-6 3PA, 16 points, seven assists and four TOs in 40 minutes. Much better than the previous game, but still not Harden-like production. -19 plus/minus, but no Nets player in the normal rotation had a positive +/-.

Game 7: 5-17 FG, 2-12 3PA, 10-10 FTA, 22 points total, 9 assists, four TOs, -4 +/-. When he wasn't getting help from refs early in the games, he was helping the Bucks stay in the game.

I would say that having Harden on the floor hurt the Nets more than helped, but with so little depth behind him, James Harden at 40 percent is probably still better than Tyler Johnson and Mike James at 100 percent.

But that's what happens when you build a superteam through free agency and lopsided trades. You rely too hard on the stars. If they get hurt or hobbled, so does your championship odds.

"During the last 2 games though, the Bucks and Giannis in particular made the adjustments they needed to play more like people expected them to."

I'd love to read your breakdown on these adjustments.

 

So all you're saying is that the Bucks had all those things going for them, and yet KD was a toe away from practically winning the series by himself. Of course, that's ignoring the major point that if the Bucks had equivalent injuries-- Middleton not playing, Holiday missing most of the series and coming back on one leg --anyone with half a clue knows the Nets win the series easily. So again, how does that have anything to do with being a super team? The Clippers have depth, yet with no Kawhi they're not going to win anything and probably won't even make the finals.

The Bucks are just lucky to be the one team who's stars are mostly healthy and/or not in Covid protocol right now. That excludes the Hawks who only have one real star. So what would be your next point after that glaring hole in your argument? That is was karma for trying to stack too much talent? At least that would have some merit for people that belive in those things, but nothing you're saying now has any sort of reason, which is unsurprising given how emotionally invested you seem to be.

I don't understand the point of your James Harden info dump. I'm aware he was overall a liability the last few games. All I'm saying is that I'm not 100% convinced it's mostly due to injury, and not just regular Playoff Harden.

Pinkie_pie said:

Ben Simmons had a shocker series but I still believe he can be a future immortal just needs to work on his shooting

That was half decent logic 4 years ago when he was a rookie*(second year as a pro), but it's been 4 years now.



76ers-Hawks: That was probably the worst choke job I've ever seen from one individual player in the 4th quarter. I genuinely feel like the Sixers could have dragged my fat ass out there for 5 minutes in the 4th quarter and I would've given them more than Ben Simmons did. What a freaking disgrace. He has had 4 seasons to try to improve his shooting and become a somewhat decent scorer outside of 10 feet and he has not gotten any better than from when he was drafted! If anything, he's gotten worse! Simply inexcusable! This goes far beyond just a bad shooting form. It's mental! He just does not want to shoot the basketball. He shits his pants just at the mere thought of pulling up from 3 in the 4th quarter during a close game. How else do you explain passing up a WIDE OPEN DUNK UNDERNEATH THE BASKET that would have tied the game?!?!? Just look at Embiid's reaction after the foul. Body language can tell you more than words can and his body language was saying "What the hell are you doing, Ben?! Just lay the fucking ball up!" If the 76ers truly want to be have a serious shot at winning a championship, they need to get Simmons the fuck out of there. I'd look into possibly trading him as part of a package to Portland for Damian Lillard. Hell, even CJ McCollum might do. SOMETHING. Or make him bulk up and move him to Forward, because if he's your starting PG, you're not winning a championship.



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Suns-Clippers: The Spirit and Legend of Kobe Bryant lives on in Devin Booker. Kobe was, is, and always will be, my favorite player and one of my idols and inspirations. And every time I watch Devin Booker play, especially in games like last night where he just took over and the Clippers had no answers, it was like I was a little kid watching Kobe again. He plays JUST LIKE him. No fear, no remorse, and no mercy. Just an absolute, stone cold killer. Mamba Mentality personified. And man, I can't help it I get emotional and even a little teary-eyed. (God, I miss Kobe, man.) As such, I find myself rooting for the Suns to win the whole thing. This was a good first step, taking Game 1. But after the Clippers just won 2 straight series' after being down 0-2, the last thing ANY team should do is ease off of them. Chris Paul will be back at some point, and there are still question marks about Kawhi Leonard, but that shouldn't matter if you're the Suns. They should be in full attack mode throughout the whole series. Don't give them room to breath.



PAOerfulone said:

76ers-Hawks: That was probably the worst choke job I've ever seen from one individual player in the 4th quarter. I genuinely feel like the Sixers could have dragged my fat ass out there for 5 minutes in the 4th quarter and I would've given them more than Ben Simmons did. What a freaking disgrace. He has had 4 seasons to try to improve his shooting and become a somewhat decent scorer outside of 10 feet and he has not gotten any better than from when he was drafted! If anything, he's gotten worse! Simply inexcusable! This goes far beyond just a bad shooting form. It's mental! He just does not want to shoot the basketball. He shits his pants just at the mere thought of pulling up from 3 in the 4th quarter during a close game. How else do you explain passing up a WIDE OPEN DUNK UNDERNEATH THE BASKET that would have tied the game?!?!? Just look at Embiid's reaction after the foul. Body language can tell you more than words can and his body language was saying "What the hell are you doing, Ben?! Just lay the fucking ball up!" If the 76ers truly want to be have a serious shot at winning a championship, they need to get Simmons the fuck out of there. I'd look into possibly trading him as part of a package to Portland for Damian Lillard. Hell, even CJ McCollum might do. SOMETHING. Or make him bulk up and move him to Forward, because if he's your starting PG, you're not winning a championship.

Don't just look at Embiid's reaction either, look at the way he's moving back up the court:

This man is playing with his knee half-attatched, putting his body on the line to try and push their team forward, and all Ben Simmons can offer is 'I am who I am, it is what it is'. Imagine being in the league for several years, getting paid millions upon millions, and that's your attitude towards criticism. Absolute joker.



PAOerfulone said:

76ers-Hawks: That was probably the worst choke job I've ever seen from one individual player in the 4th quarter. I genuinely feel like the Sixers could have dragged my fat ass out there for 5 minutes in the 4th quarter and I would've given them more than Ben Simmons did. What a freaking disgrace. He has had 4 seasons to try to improve his shooting and become a somewhat decent scorer outside of 10 feet and he has not gotten any better than from when he was drafted! If anything, he's gotten worse! Simply inexcusable!.ing a championship, they need to get Simmons the fuck out of there. I'd look into possibly trading him as part of a package to Portland for Damian Lillard. Hell, even CJ McCollum might do. SOMETHING. Or make him bulk up and move him to Forward, because if he's your starting PG, you're not winning a championship.

Well he shoots with his wrong hand he is right handed shoots with his left hand but does everything else with his right hand.

The Secret Truth: Is Ben Simmons Shooting With the WRONG Hand? - YouTube



KLAMarine said:
burninmylight said:

Yeah, how dare he get in position for a potential rebound and get his feet set under the goal while Kyrie flares his limbs out like Pac-Man's death/KO animation!

Want to know who disagrees with us? Kyrie's coach: https://clutchpoints.com/nets-news-steve-nash-reveals-true-feelings-on-giannis-antetokounmpo-move-that-injured-kyrie-irving/

Watched replay, Kyrie wasn't flailing or anything. Giannis did him dirty. The only consolation for me is how Durant benefited from Zaza injuring Kawhi in 2017 and now it went against him.

I didn't say flail, I said flare. Flail would suggest he was waving his limbs around like a Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Tube Man. By "flare", I meant that he extended his legs out on his way down from the FG attempt at the goal. Watch the replay one more time. Look at his left leg. That's not a natural landing motion. It would be one thing if he was attempting a dunk or layup off of a fastbreak, where momentum can cause you to do some unusual things in trying to gather yourself, but he was essentially shooting a jumper right at the basket. Some people think that Irving was trying to draw contact by kicking his leg out. I'm not convinced of that, but it's still not a natural motion, and coming straight down with both legs would have made more sense.

https://youtu.be/fXBttjSVF3o?t=40

Also, look at where Giannis is focused during the entire play. Notice how he's not looking at Kyrie at all, especially his lower body. He's solely focused on squaring up for a potential rebound. Eyes are intently on the goal. How would he be able to slide his foot under a man that is slightly behind him that he can't even see? If he wanted to hurt Irving, wouldn't he need to at least be looking in his general direction to see where he would land to get his foot in the right place? If anything, Irving would have been better off if Giannis WAS trying to hurt him, because then Giannis would have guessed wrong due to Irving's weird kick-out of his left leg.

Also also, the Zaza rule only applies to jump shooters beyond the arc. The defender has to slide his foot under the defender in an unnatural way. This play happened right at the rim, and as anyone can plainly see, Giiannis wasn't closing out on the shooter, he was positioning for a rebound. Giannis didn't do anything dirty. Freak injuries occasionally happen in basketball.

If you think that play is dirty, then tell me if you think this play is dirty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_I89VejE0c

Looking forward to your honest answer.



Shaunodon said:
burninmylight said:

"And how exactly is it a result of them being a super team?"

I'll tell you how. They traded away great depth in guys like Caris Levert and Jarrett Allen to make room for Harden a year after spending all of their cap space on Irving, Durant and the ghost of DeAndre Jordan. So outside of Joe Harris and Spencer Dinwiddie, the rest of the roster is made up of minimum salary guys you can get from a scrap heap like Mike James, Tyler Johnson and TLC, guys on rookie contracts like Nic Claxton, and vets that may or may not be washed up, but definitely well past their prime like Jeff Green and Blake Griffin.

Not saying it was a bad plan. Any team in the league would have and should have done it, but as LudicrousSpeed was alluding to, when you're a top-heavy team like Brooklyn and those stars go down, it hurts you far more than a roster with a bit more depth. The only reason the series even came down to seven games, let alone OT in Game 7, was due to the pure brilliance of Durant. If he was the one that rolled his ankle or pulled his hamstring instead of Irving or Harden, it would have been over quicker.

"During the first 5 games, the Bucks played so awfully I thought just having Harden on the floor would be enough for Nets to still progress."

"Also, I don't know how bad Harden's hamstring was affecting him."

Nope. Up until Game 7, the home team in each games played well, and the road team didn't. You're probably basing your opinion on Game 2, where the Nets beat the crap out of the Bucks, but I will remind you of Game 4, where it was the other way around (don't let the final score fool you).

Ragarding Harden, did you actually watch Game 5, or at least look at a box score?

James Harden: 1-10 FG, 0-8 3PA, five points total, eight assists and four turnovers in 46 minutes. He absolutely hurt his team. He did finish with a +4 plus/minus, but chalk that up to spending so much time on the floor with Durant.

Game 6: 5-9 FG, 3-6 3PA, 16 points, seven assists and four TOs in 40 minutes. Much better than the previous game, but still not Harden-like production. -19 plus/minus, but no Nets player in the normal rotation had a positive +/-.

Game 7: 5-17 FG, 2-12 3PA, 10-10 FTA, 22 points total, 9 assists, four TOs, -4 +/-. When he wasn't getting help from refs early in the games, he was helping the Bucks stay in the game.

I would say that having Harden on the floor hurt the Nets more than helped, but with so little depth behind him, James Harden at 40 percent is probably still better than Tyler Johnson and Mike James at 100 percent.

But that's what happens when you build a superteam through free agency and lopsided trades. You rely too hard on the stars. If they get hurt or hobbled, so does your championship odds.

"During the last 2 games though, the Bucks and Giannis in particular made the adjustments they needed to play more like people expected them to."

I'd love to read your breakdown on these adjustments.

 

So all you're saying is that the Bucks had all those things going for them, and yet KD was a toe away from practically winning the series by himself. Of course, that's ignoring the major point that if the Bucks had equivalent injuries-- Middleton not playing, Holiday missing most of the series and coming back on one leg --anyone with half a clue knows the Nets win the series easily. So again, how does that have anything to do with being a super team? The Clippers have depth, yet with no Kawhi they're not going to win anything and probably won't even make the finals.

The Bucks are just lucky to be the one team who's stars are mostly healthy and/or not in Covid protocol right now. That excludes the Hawks who only have one real star. So what would be your next point after that glaring hole in your argument? That is was karma for trying to stack too much talent? At least that would have some merit for people that belive in those things, but nothing you're saying now has any sort of reason, which is unsurprising given how emotionally invested you seem to be.

I don't understand the point of your James Harden info dump. I'm aware he was overall a liability the last few games. All I'm saying is that I'm not 100% convinced it's mostly due to injury, and not just regular Playoff Harden.

"So all you're saying is that the Bucks had all those things going for them, and yet KD was a toe away from practically winning the series by himself."

Did you watch the game? Because yes, that's what it came down to. It be like that sometimes.

"Of course, that's ignoring the major point that if the Bucks had equivalent injuries-- Middleton not playing, Holiday missing most of the series and coming back on one leg --"

"The Bucks are just lucky to be the one team who's stars are mostly healthy and/or not in Covid protocol right now."

Injuries are a part of the game, and always have been. The Lakers didn't have LeBron in the playoffs this year. The Suns are missing Chris Paul. The Rockets missed Chris Paul when the took the Warriors to six or seven games a few years ago. The Heat didn't have Goran Dragic for most of the finals last year. Golden State didn't have KD or Klay Thompson the year before that. It's not the Bucks' fault that Brooklyn couldn't play their stars as intended, and it's not the Bucks' fault that Brooklyn's depth was absolutely shot because of its extremely top-heavy roster.

I can't believe that you still need explanation at this point, but here goes: when you sacrifice depth for more stars, you are not only left with giant holes in your roster when those stars are healthy, but craters when those stars are hurt. We can call it karma if trying to make me a strawman makes you feel better about it. I call it history.

"The Clippers have depth, yet with no Kawhi they're not going to win anything and probably won't even make the finals."

The Clippers didn't trade away important starters/role players that would have played big minutes in the playoffs to acquire Kawhi Leonard, did they? They signed him and Paul George off the street.

What would be your next point after that glaring hole in your argument?

"anyone with half a clue knows the Nets win the series easily."

The Sixers were supposed to win their series against the Hawks easily, but who plays on Wednesday? Everyone with half a brain - including me - picked Philly. Point is, we don't know how the Bucks-Nets would have played out if Brooklyn had a healthy roster because we didn't see it.

"I don't understand the point of your James Harden info dump. I'm aware he was overall a liability the last few games. All I'm saying is that I'm not 100% convinced it's mostly due to injury, and not just regular Playoff Harden."

I think you understand it and you're just trying to save face. You know what the point was, but I will tell you anyway: to show you what the numbers say about his performance after the hamstring injury.

You claim that nothing I say has any sort of reason, yet all you're bringing to the table is unsubstantiated opinions. A whole lot of, "I think", "I don't know", "Let me state the obvious". I'm at least giving you numbers and facts. For what basis do you have to say Harden's performance in the series might have just been "regular Playoff Harden"? Like, what is that even based on? That sounds way more of a personal feeling than anything I've said so far.