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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Phil Spencer Says Xbox Series X Games Aren't Being Held Back By Xbox One

LudicrousSpeed said:
REDZONE said:

Lol there are some people who will believe anything this guy says.It's not just about graphics being able to scale up and down,the ssd's in the new console will literally change the designs of games.Any game built with those ssd's in mind will not run on last gen hardware so of course it will hold it back.


Mark Cerny and every other developer literally talked about how building a game with ssd's in mind changes the layout of the games.

And then they showed us those games and it turns out, nah, not so much.

In all honesty, we haven't seen nothing yet. Sony has just showed us some glimpses and a Ratchet&Clank game. Doesn't mean Cerny and all the developers freaking out over the SSD tech are lying, though. And it definitely doesn't mean these next gen consoles and high-end pc aren't capable of doing a lot more than just running current gen games with a bump in resolution and framerates.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 11 July 2020

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goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Don’t know what to tell you. You can stick with your PC or Xbox One you all ready bought if you aren’t ready. Or you are forced to spend $500 on a new console. This goes double if you aren’t a early adopter. You think people who bought a PS4 in the last year or two are day 1 adopters? 

Bold: Halo Infinite is exclusive in that I can’t find it on PS. We both know that’s the only parameter that matters here. It’s also a Series X launch title. Also a new game when it releases. You have no idea how different it will be to the last gen version. Myself and many others don’t want to settle. We want the best version. That said:

https://twitter.com/xcloudtimdog/status/1276173499028078592?s=21

We will see plenty of games that will fall outside the cross gen window in the coming weeks.  

Maybe that's the only parameter that matters for fanboys. But Halo not being on ps5 is just a business decision, whereas Horizon Zero West being exclusive to the ps5 is a design decision. Big difference there in how far the developers can potentially take their ambitions.

The truth is that MS is too busy being all consumer friendly that they ARE forgetting the people who are excited about next gen. You know the people who want to see exciting new games, conceived to be impossible on current gen. I get what you're saying and that you won't settle for anything less than the best version of Halo Infinite. But how many people bought a X1X or a high-end gpu to play the best version of base console games? 

There simply is a difference between a generational jump we typically see when new consoles come out, and scalable graphics like we see on pc. This is the difference.

It always amazes me how you can say such things with such confidence without actually seeing the games. I mean, what exactly on that HZD trailer made you think that it would be impossible for it to run on PS4? Because all I saw there was more details in vegetation, textures, reflections a draw distance; you know.. graphics? (and it didn't even look like a generational leap graphically speaking).

And I would also love to see what are those "design choices" that make Spiderman, Sackboy and GT7 impossible to run on PS4.

And you know what? maybe is because I'm not an early adopter that I'm able to see things from a different perspective but, no matter how much Sony wants it, no more than 25m people will be able to buy the PS5 in the first year. That means at least 90m PS4 owners won't even have the option to play those games just because Sony decided to lock them to the PS5 and use this "oh, these are new experiences only possible on PS5" PR even though is plain as day (for anyone who is not willingly closing their eyes) that those games can indeed be played on PS4.



LudicrousSpeed said:
REDZONE said:

Lol there are some people who will believe anything this guy says.It's not just about graphics being able to scale up and down,the ssd's in the new console will literally change the designs of games.Any game built with those ssd's in mind will not run on last gen hardware so of course it will hold it back.


Mark Cerny and every other developer literally talked about how building a game with ssd's in mind changes the layout of the games.

And then they showed us those games and it turns out, nah, not so much.

Yup Rachet and Clank streaming entire  worlds in an instant or are you telling me ps4 and Xbox one are able to do the same?



chakkra said:
goopy20 said:

Maybe that's the only parameter that matters for fanboys. But Halo not being on ps5 is just a business decision, whereas Horizon Zero West being exclusive to the ps5 is a design decision. Big difference there in how far the developers can potentially take their ambitions.

The truth is that MS is too busy being all consumer friendly that they ARE forgetting the people who are excited about next gen. You know the people who want to see exciting new games, conceived to be impossible on current gen. I get what you're saying and that you won't settle for anything less than the best version of Halo Infinite. But how many people bought a X1X or a high-end gpu to play the best version of base console games? 

There simply is a difference between a generational jump we typically see when new consoles come out, and scalable graphics like we see on pc. This is the difference.

It always amazes me how you can say such things with such confidence without actually seeing the games. I mean, what exactly on that HZD trailer made you think that it would be impossible for it to run on PS4? Because all I saw there was more details in vegetation, textures, reflections a draw distance; you know.. graphics? (and it didn't even look like a generational leap graphically speaking).

And I would also love to see what are those "design choices" that make Spiderman, Sackboy and GT7 impossible to run on PS4.

And you know what? maybe is because I'm not an early adopter that I'm able to see things from a different perspective but, no matter how much Sony wants it, no more than 25m people will be able to buy the PS5 in the first year. That means at least 90m PS4 owners won't even have the option to play those games just because Sony decided to lock them to the PS5 and use this "oh, these are new experiences only possible on PS5" PR even though is plain as day (for anyone who is not willingly closing their eyes) that those games can indeed be played on PS4.

Because the old consoles hitting a wall is the whole point of releasing new ones. Why would Sony leave behind 100m customers and start from scratch if the ps4 can do everything the ps5 can? 

It's Sony's job to show us why we should upgrade and get us excited. They haven't shown us a lot but I'm sure they got that part covered. MS should be doing the same if the Series X has any sort of priority for them, but this has practically been MS marketing messaging so far..

MS: Buy our 12Tflops beastly console!

Also MS: Or not...



SvennoJ said:
sales2099 said:

From my point of view he’s aware of what the gamers are saying and responding to them. Core gamer mindshare going into next gen is important.

Because after all, we do talk about these things and dissect every quote. He wants to ideally shape the narrative when people take apart his quotes. Naturally he says things that the other side cherry picks and makes suit their narrative. Tale as old as time. 

Overall they are doing something that’s pro consumer and it’s a shame they getting blowback. And waiting for the 23rd is frustrating to say the least lol. 

How is it pro consumer not to offer anything that's specifically made to showcase and can only be enjoyed on the shiny new console you just forked out $500 for. I find it anti early adopter tbh. Ideally there would be both, some cross-gen games and a bunch of new games that are specifically made for the new consoles taking full advantage of the SSD and improved CPU/GPU.

Early adopters want exclusive launch games. That's the main reason for being an early adopter. Exciting new games you could not experience on the old system. Not just the same stuff at higher res / fps with some extra effects.

I have over 75 physical games and almost 400 digital games on PS4 (which in total have over 4000 titles released), while the average gamer buy 10 games.

So I don't need any new games being released on PS4... on PS5 I have exactly 0 games so yes I need games to be released for it so I can enjoy it at launch.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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REDZONE said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

And then they showed us those games and it turns out, nah, not so much.

Yup Rachet and Clank streaming entire  worlds in an instant or are you telling me ps4 and Xbox one are able to do the same?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai3o0XtrnM8

If Sony wanted to do a PS4 version of "Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart", the whole sequence between 01:03 and 01:33 could be replaced with playing a prerendered cutscene while loading the pirate level in the background in that half minute.

Additionally 0:00 - 0:54 could be played as prerendered 4K-video on PS4 in the same quality (or better) as the ingame engine of PS5... there is no interaction in that scene.

Additionally 1:46 - 2:10 could be played as prerendered 4K-video on PS4 in the same quality (or better) as the ingame engine of PS5... there is no interaction in that scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiImwSE2RuQ

Jumping to different positions within the same level. Should have been also be possible on PS4. It's not the first game where you can jump through portals to other points in the same level or where you switch between two "realities" (so two versions of a level):  Prey (2006), Portal (2007), Portal 2 (2011), Quantum Break (2016)...

Last edited by Conina - on 11 July 2020

goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

And then they showed us those games and it turns out, nah, not so much.

In all honesty, we haven't seen nothing yet. Sony has just showed us some glimpses and a Ratchet&Clank game. Doesn't mean Cerny and all the developers freaking out over the SSD tech are lying, though. And it definitely doesn't mean these next gen consoles and high-end pc aren't capable of doing a lot more than just running current gen games with a bump in resolution and framerates.

I’m sure when we’re years into the gen well start to see actual next gen games. And luckily for people like you who are perpetually worried about XSX being held back by Xbone, MS won’t be supporting the Xbone with all games after 2021.

But yeah I agree, I saw nothing in the PS5 event that blew me away either.



goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Wasn’t aware Halo Infinite won’t be exciting or a new game when it launches...please tell me more. And I find it hard to believe games like Spiderman MM and GT7 are impossible on PS4. How about Destruction Derby and Sackboy??? You can’t lean on just Horizon 2 and Ratchet Sony doing similar tactics overall. 

I figure the games themselves would be the draw. You know...the very same reason PS fans tell us constantly. That the exclusive games did the talking and not their specs? Just using your own peoples argument back at you. And if you a late adopter you aren’t left behind day 1. Simple. 

Otherwise people can easily get the console for the investment knowing of what’s to come. PS4 didn’t sell crazy good in the first year because they couldn’t get enough of Knack and Killzone. I don’t recall there being shortages of either game and both games lighting up the charts for months. People got in early for what’s exclusive to the brand and what’s to come. Again using PS history in my favour. 

I'm not saying Infinite won't be exciting, I have no doubt it will be awesome. But lets face it, after Sony's event, people are now having super high expectation for the 23rd. We don't want Infinite to just be a good Xbox One game that looks better on Series X, we expect it be blown away with jaw dropping next gen visuals. We'll see soon enough but I just don't see how Halo will deliver on that front when it's designed around the Xone's limitations. And it will likely be the same with all their other cross-gen 1st party games. Keep in mind that the 23rd isn't a Series X event, it's a Xbox event.

GT7 didn't look like a generational leap over GT Sports so I give you that. Spider Man we don't really know as I didn't see a whole lot of clear gameplay there. So yes, that only leaves me with Ratchet & Clank and Horizon Zero West. That doesn't mean Sony isn't going to show us more, though. And it also doesn't change the fact that all of Sony's studios are working on ps5 exclusives. 

We might not know when we will see them, but we do know that when SM and ND's new games show up they'll be designed to take 100% advantage of the ps5. With MS things are simply different. We're getting cross-gen titles for the first 2 years and after that we have no clue how far they'll be able to push Series X. Even after they drop support for Xone, they'll still have to consider the specs of Lockhart and the average gaming pc. How long will it take till developers can stop supporting HDD on pc? And how long till something like a RTX2080 becomes standard on pc?

Until average consumer pc's catches up with these next gen consoles, all of MS's exclusives will have to designed around HDD and common gpu's like the GTX1060 or lower. Just look at Scorn. It's a next gen console exclusive on Series X but that doesn't mean it requires beastly specs. It doesn't say anything about a SSD for example and the recommended specs are a GTX970: https://store.steampowered.com/app/698670/Scorn/ Same thing with most of Sony's console exclusives like God Fall by the way.

DF would disagree from you due to the RayTracing being used.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
goopy20 said:

I'm not saying Infinite won't be exciting, I have no doubt it will be awesome. But lets face it, after Sony's event, people are now having super high expectation for the 23rd. We don't want Infinite to just be a good Xbox One game that looks better on Series X, we expect it be blown away with jaw dropping next gen visuals. We'll see soon enough but I just don't see how Halo will deliver on that front when it's designed around the Xone's limitations. And it will likely be the same with all their other cross-gen 1st party games. Keep in mind that the 23rd isn't a Series X event, it's a Xbox event.

GT7 didn't look like a generational leap over GT Sports so I give you that. Spider Man we don't really know as I didn't see a whole lot of clear gameplay there. So yes, that only leaves me with Ratchet & Clank and Horizon Zero West. That doesn't mean Sony isn't going to show us more, though. And it also doesn't change the fact that all of Sony's studios are working on ps5 exclusives. 

We might not know when we will see them, but we do know that when SM and ND's new games show up they'll be designed to take 100% advantage of the ps5. With MS things are simply different. We're getting cross-gen titles for the first 2 years and after that we have no clue how far they'll be able to push Series X. Even after they drop support for Xone, they'll still have to consider the specs of Lockhart and the average gaming pc. How long will it take till developers can stop supporting HDD on pc? And how long till something like a RTX2080 becomes standard on pc?

Until average consumer pc's catches up with these next gen consoles, all of MS's exclusives will have to designed around HDD and common gpu's like the GTX1060 or lower. Just look at Scorn. It's a next gen console exclusive on Series X but that doesn't mean it requires beastly specs. It doesn't say anything about a SSD for example and the recommended specs are a GTX970: https://store.steampowered.com/app/698670/Scorn/ Same thing with most of Sony's console exclusives like God Fall by the way.

DF would disagree from you due to the RayTracing being used.

Ray Tracing does look like a thing that could make the Series X version stand out from the Xone version. Not really sure to be honest as we've seen some pretty different results on the RTX games. Metro really makes good use of it while in other games it's just some extra reflections that aren't that noticeable. I would love to see Path tracing, though. That would truly be a game changer.



sales2099 said:

Great sounds like you all ready in the ecosystem you don’t need to upgrade right away. And you won’t be left behind either. God knows there’s plenty early adopters to go around at launch. 

Sure, if going from investing over $2000 on 360 HW and games, to $31 (wired 360 controller and 1 month game pass) last gen is good enough for MS to keep making games, then great!

I'll spend that $2000 budget on a nice new gaming laptop in a few years. No point in going back to XBox. Phil has convinced me that's the better deal.