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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

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Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93

What is forced diversity?



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Xxain said:
What is forced diversity?

Forcing a more diverse cast of characters into a piece of media with a setting where it doesn't make sense to have that level of diversity. Or forcing a more diverse cast of characters in just for brownie points with the woke crowd, without giving those characters proper justification or character development. A great example is Finn in the new Star Wars movies, they made him black just for the brownie points with the woke crowd, then gave him shit character development, and then shrunk him on the Chinese posters for the movies because China doesn't like black characters. He was a token character just for the brownie points with the woke crowd in the west, quickly discarded by Disney when they thought he would hurt their ticket sales in China. 



There needs to justification to have a non white character?



Xxain said:
There needs to justification to have a non white character?

Depending on the setting, yes. For instance, when Kingdom Come Deliverance released a few years ago, the woke crowd on ResetEra and such was criticizing the game for having an all-white cast, even though it made absolute sense for a game set in 1400's Bohemia to have an all-white cast, due to the fact that there is no historical evidence of people of color living in 1400's Bohemia in significant numbers. If they had caved in to the Era crowd and put a darker skinned character in the game, they would have needed to give a darn good justification for that characters presence in Bohemia.

Diversity is not a bad thing, it is a great thing in fact, but forced diversity sucks. I have no problem with diversity in media when it is done right. For instance, I'm a big Star Trek fan, and my favorite of the Star Trek series is Star Trek Voyager. Voyager was well known for having one of the most diverse casts of any tv series back in the 90's, it had a white female captain (the first major female captain in a Star Trek series), a native-American first officer, a black Vulcan security officer, an Asian-American Ops officer, and a Klingon Chief Engineer who was played by a Latina actress, plus a few other white characters. But it never felt forced or in your face, like "we have a diverse cast, we're better than every other show out there because we're diverse". It felt natural and made absolute sense for the show's setting. 

Another great example of forced diversity is the recent Witcher tv series on Netflix, where they changed the races of several characters from the books just so that they could have a more diverse cast for the show. No reasoning was given for this, it was clearly just there so that the woke crowd wouldn't riot because the show had an all-white main cast.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 19 June 2020

gets a 10/10 from me

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shikamaru317 said:
Xxain said:
There needs to justification to have a non white character?

Depending on the setting, yes. For instance, when Kingdom Come Deliverance released a few years ago, the woke crowd on ResetEra and such was criticizing the game for having an all-white cast, even though it made absolute sense for a game set in 1400's Bohemia to have an all-white cast, die to the fact that there is no historical evidence of people of color living in 1400's Bohemia in significant numbers. If they had caved into the Era crowd and put a darker skinned character in the game, they would have needed to give a darn good justification for that characters presence in Bohemia.

Diversity is not a bad thing, but forced diversity sucks. I have no problem with diversity when it is done right. For instance, I'm a big Star Trek fan, and my favorite of the Star Trek series is Star Trek Voyager. Voyager was well known for having one of the most diverse casts of any tv series back in the 90's, it had a white female captain (the first major female captain in a Star Trek series), a native-American first officer, a black Vulcan security officer, an Asian-American Ops officer, and a Klingon Chief Engineer who was played by a Latina actress, plus a few other white characters. But it never felt forced or in your face, like "we have a diverse cast, we're better than every other show out there because we're diverse". It felt natural and made absolute sense for the show's setting. 

You can make the historical argument in the first case, but what reason is there that a black person couldn't be a storm trooper? There was a black person in the original trilogy so it's not like Star Wars was a cosmic white enthostate before Flin. 



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shikamaru317 said:
Xxain said:
There needs to justification to have a non white character?

Depending on the setting, yes. For instance, when Kingdom Come Deliverance released a few years ago, the woke crowd on ResetEra and such was criticizing the game for having an all-white cast, even though it made absolute sense for a game set in 1400's Bohemia to have an all-white cast, due to the fact that there is no historical evidence of people of color living in 1400's Bohemia in significant numbers. If they had caved in to the Era crowd and put a darker skinned character in the game, they would have needed to give a darn good justification for that characters presence in Bohemia.

Diversity is not a bad thing, it is a great thing in fact, but forced diversity sucks. I have no problem with diversity in media when it is done right. For instance, I'm a big Star Trek fan, and my favorite of the Star Trek series is Star Trek Voyager. Voyager was well known for having one of the most diverse casts of any tv series back in the 90's, it had a white female captain (the first major female captain in a Star Trek series), a native-American first officer, a black Vulcan security officer, an Asian-American Ops officer, and a Klingon Chief Engineer who was played by a Latina actress, plus a few other white characters. But it never felt forced or in your face, like "we have a diverse cast, we're better than every other show out there because we're diverse". It felt natural and made absolute sense for the show's setting. 

Another great example of forced diversity is the recent Witcher tv series on Netflix, where they changed the races of several characters from the books just so that they could have a more diverse cast for the show. Not reasoning was given for this, it was clearly just there so that the woke crowd wouldn't riot because the show had an all-white main cast.

I was specifically responding to you second sentence. The historic answer does not apply there.



Torillian said:
shikamaru317 said:

Depending on the setting, yes. For instance, when Kingdom Come Deliverance released a few years ago, the woke crowd on ResetEra and such was criticizing the game for having an all-white cast, even though it made absolute sense for a game set in 1400's Bohemia to have an all-white cast, die to the fact that there is no historical evidence of people of color living in 1400's Bohemia in significant numbers. If they had caved into the Era crowd and put a darker skinned character in the game, they would have needed to give a darn good justification for that characters presence in Bohemia.

Diversity is not a bad thing, but forced diversity sucks. I have no problem with diversity when it is done right. For instance, I'm a big Star Trek fan, and my favorite of the Star Trek series is Star Trek Voyager. Voyager was well known for having one of the most diverse casts of any tv series back in the 90's, it had a white female captain (the first major female captain in a Star Trek series), a native-American first officer, a black Vulcan security officer, an Asian-American Ops officer, and a Klingon Chief Engineer who was played by a Latina actress, plus a few other white characters. But it never felt forced or in your face, like "we have a diverse cast, we're better than every other show out there because we're diverse". It felt natural and made absolute sense for the show's setting. 

You can make the historical argument in the first case, but what reason is there that a black person couldn't be a storm trooper? There was a black person in the original trilogy so it's not like Star Wars was a cosmic white enthostate before Flin. 

The problem wasn't that he was black, but that he was a black stormtrooper. George Lucas based the Empire on Nazi Germany, they were intended to be white supremacists, that is why we saw very few Aliens or humans of color as Imperial Officers in the original trilogy and subsequent expanded universe works. The First Order was an off-shoot of the Empire, so if the Empire was mostly white, it didn't make much sense for Finn, as a stormtrooper, to be black. If the actors for Poe and Finn changed places, there wouldn't have been barely a peep of criticism, because the issue wasn't with Finn being black, but with him being a black stormtrooper. People would have had no issue with a black Resistance pilot, because the Rebellion, which the Resistance is based on, was shown to be far more diverse than the Empire in the original trilogy and subsequent expanded universe works, both in terms of human skin tone and having far more Alien species. 

But what bothers me far more than the lore discrepancy there, is that Finn largely felt like a throwaway character that had little part to play in the overall storyline of the trilogy. He was put in for brownie points with the woke crowd, and then got crappy character development, with the Rey-Finn shippers being ignored in favor of catering to the rather cringey Rey-Kylo shippers. If Fin had actually been a good character with good character development, people would have forgotten their issues with a Black Stormtrooper real quick.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 19 June 2020

shikamaru317 said:
Torillian said:

You can make the historical argument in the first case, but what reason is there that a black person couldn't be a storm trooper? There was a black person in the original trilogy so it's not like Star Wars was a cosmic white enthostate before Flin. 

The problem wasn't that he was black, but that he was a black stormtrooper. George Lucas based the Empire on Nazi Germany, they were intended to be white supremacists, that is why we saw very few Aliens or humans of color as Imperial Officers in the original trilogy and subsequent expanded universe works. The First Order was an off-shoot of the Empire, so if the Empire was mostly white, it didn't make much sense for Finn, as a stormtrooper, to be black.

But what bothers me far more than the lore discrepancy there, is that Finn largely felt like a throwaway character that had little part to play in the overall storyline of the trilogy. He was put in for brownie points with the woke crowd, and then got crappy character development, with the Rey-Finn shippers being ignored in favor of catering to the rather cringey Rey-Kylo shippers. If Fin had actually been a good character with good character development, people would have forgotten their issues with a Black Stormtrooper real quick.

What does that have to do with being black? Seems like a badly written character, as if we haven't seen plenty of those in video games and other movie. Why is color important in this case? 



shikamaru317 said:
Torillian said:

You can make the historical argument in the first case, but what reason is there that a black person couldn't be a storm trooper? There was a black person in the original trilogy so it's not like Star Wars was a cosmic white enthostate before Flin. 

The problem wasn't that he was black, but that he was a black stormtrooper. George Lucas based the Empire on Nazi Germany, they were intended to be white supremacists, that is why we saw very few Aliens or humans of color as Imperial Officers in the original trilogy and subsequent expanded universe works. The First Order was an off-shoot of the Empire, so if the Empire was mostly white, it didn't make much sense for Finn, as a stormtrooper, to be black.

But what bothers me far more than the lore discrepancy there, is that Finn largely felt like a throwaway character that had little part to play in the overall storyline of the trilogy. He was put in for brownie points with the woke crowd, and then got crappy character development, with the Rey-Finn shippers being ignored in favor of catering to the rather cringey Rey-Kylo shippers. If Fin had actually been a good character with good character development, people would have forgotten their issues with a Black Stormtrooper real quick.

Can a bad black character ever just be that? Is a bad character that's a minority by definition someone shoved in for "woke points"?

Also just wanted to point out if you say the empire was mostly white then it is totally reasonable for any single person to be black. For Finn to not make sense the Empire needs to be entirely white, not mostly white. 



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