Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 28 39.44%
 
Yes 43 60.56%
 
Total:71
John2290 said:
shikamaru317 said:

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of the direction that Naughty Dog has been headed down for awhile now. Ever since Bruce and Neil forced Amy Hennig out of the company and stole Uncharted 4 from her, I've seen a definite directional shift at the company. Uncharted 4 wasn't too bad, though definitely not as good 1-3, but you could already see the seeds of Naughty Dog's directional shift in that game, starting with Nadine (who Amy Hennig claims didn't exist in her Uncharted 4). A badass female character isn't a bad thing, but it has to feel believable, and Nadine crossed into the realm of unbelievable when she kicked the shit out of both Nathan and Sam at the same time later in the game. The directional shift continued with Uncharted Lost Legacy, with the controversial return of Nadine in an even larger role, as well as many having concerns about Chloe's sex appeal being toned down.

But TLOU 2 takes this directional shift to the extreme. It not only seems to be the most "woke" AAA game ever made, it is up there with some of the woke indies. I'm not even a TLOU fan, I only like Uncharted, but from an outsiders perspective, I think if I was a fan of the first game, I would be pretty pissed at the direction this game takes the story in, the things that are done to the characters from the first (I have read a full plot overview that seems to be accurate). I won't go into any details on this since this isn't a spoiler thread, and I won't be responding to anybody in this thread because I just don't have the energy to debate this stuff with anybody.

I'll just say that I hope the rumors that Sony gave the Uncharted IP to Sony San Diego and Sony San Mateo are true. I don't want to see Uncharted die, nor do I want to see it continue under Naughty Dog, considering the direction that Naughty Dog is moving in as a studio. Hopefully if that rumor is true, the 2 studios can bring back what made Uncharted 1-3 so special, rather that is in the form of a new series about Cassie Drake or further spinoffs focused on side characters like Nadine/Chloe, Sam/Sully, or Charlie Cutter doesn't matter to me so much, I just want good writing and good characters that don't come across as forced. 

You hate Nadine but want to see a Nadine and Chloe game again?

I agree Nadine was unbelivable and a forced character, I gave up on LL because of the dialouge made me cringe one to many times, perhaps the writers have just lost it or been replaced, I feel it in TLOU2 too, it's not the main dialouge but the character chatter... ya know. Perhaps they have different writing teams and one is incompetent. 

It's not that I want to see another Chloe/Nadine game (I'm personally hoping the next game either starts a new series focused on Cassie Drake, or is Sam/Sully between Uncharted 4 and Uncharted 4's epilogue where they have retired). I just won't mind too much if we get another Chloe/Nadine game if they try to fix Nadine's character. 

For what It's worth, I actually like Uncharted Lost Legacy more than Uncharted 4. The villain was way better than Rafe in 4 (I thought Rafe was a terrible villain), and it was fun playing as Chloe I thought. Nadine was a definite downside though, and the game has some other issues, such as how it just throws you in with no backstory. 



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shikamaru317 said:
John2290 said:

You hate Nadine but want to see a Nadine and Chloe game again?

I agree Nadine was unbelivable and a forced character, I gave up on LL because of the dialouge made me cringe one to many times, perhaps the writers have just lost it or been replaced, I feel it in TLOU2 too, it's not the main dialouge but the character chatter... ya know. Perhaps they have different writing teams and one is incompetent. 

It's not that I want to see another Chloe/Nadine game (I'm personally hoping the next game either starts a new series focused on Cassie Drake, or is Sam/Sully between Uncharted 4 and Uncharted 4's epilogue where they have retired). I just won't mind too much if we get another Chloe/Nadine game if they try to fix Nadine's character. 

For what It's worth, I actually like Uncharted Lost Legacy more than Uncharted 4. The villain was way better than Rafe in 4 (I thought Rafe was a terrible villain), and it was fun playing as Chloe I thought. Nadine was a definite downside though, and the game has some other issues, such as how it just throws you in with no backstory. 

Rafie is just a spoiled brat scumbag that try to use the money to cover for his jealous over Drake.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

It's not that I want to see another Chloe/Nadine game (I'm personally hoping the next game either starts a new series focused on Cassie Drake, or is Sam/Sully between Uncharted 4 and Uncharted 4's epilogue where they have retired). I just won't mind too much if we get another Chloe/Nadine game if they try to fix Nadine's character. 

For what It's worth, I actually like Uncharted Lost Legacy more than Uncharted 4. The villain was way better than Rafe in 4 (I thought Rafe was a terrible villain), and it was fun playing as Chloe I thought. Nadine was a definite downside though, and the game has some other issues, such as how it just throws you in with no backstory. 

Rafie is just a spoiled brat scumbag that try to use the money to cover for his jealous over Drake.

Agreed. I found him disappointing for sure, easily the weakest villain of the 5 main games. Marlowe was my favorite villain in the series personally, Asav probably comes in 2nd. 



shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

Rafie is just a spoiled brat scumbag that try to use the money to cover for his jealous over Drake.

Agreed. I found him disappointing for sure, easily the weakest villain of the 5 main games. Marlowe was my favorite villain in the series personally, Asav probably comes in 2nd. 

Marlowe is also probably my favorite as well, well constructed, have strong ties to Nate (Rafie have it as well, but not that interesting). It almost seemed like a matern figure for some time in his life since she had some type of relationship with his father figure.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

shikamaru317 said:

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of the direction that Naughty Dog has been headed down for awhile now. Ever since Bruce and Neil forced Amy Hennig out of the company and stole Uncharted 4 from her, I've seen a definite directional shift at the company. Uncharted 4 wasn't too bad, though definitely not as good 1-3, but you could already see the seeds of Naughty Dog's directional shift in that game, starting with Nadine (who Amy Hennig claims didn't exist in her Uncharted 4). A badass female character isn't a bad thing, but it has to feel believable, and Nadine crossed into the realm of unbelievable when she kicked the shit out of both Nathan and Sam at the same time later in the game. The directional shift continued with Uncharted Lost Legacy, with the controversial return of Nadine in an even larger role, as well as many having concerns about Chloe's sex appeal being toned down.

But TLOU 2 takes this directional shift to the extreme. It not only seems to be the most "woke" AAA game ever made, it is up there with some of the woke indies. I'm not even a TLOU fan, I only like Uncharted, but from an outsiders perspective, I think if I was a fan of the first game, I would be pretty pissed at the direction this game takes the story in, the things that are done to the characters from the first (I have read a full plot overview that seems to be accurate). I won't go into any details on this since this isn't a spoiler thread, and I won't be responding to anybody in this thread because I just don't have the energy to debate this stuff with anybody.

I'll just say that I hope the rumors that Sony gave the Uncharted IP to Sony San Diego and Sony San Mateo are true. I don't want to see Uncharted die, nor do I want to see it continue under Naughty Dog, considering the direction that Naughty Dog is moving in as a studio. Hopefully if that rumor is true, the 2 studios can bring back what made Uncharted 1-3 so special, rather that is in the form of a new series about Cassie Drake or further spinoffs focused on side characters like Nadine/Chloe, Sam/Sully, or Charlie Cutter doesn't matter to me so much, I just want good writing and good characters that don't come across as forced. 

@bold. Almost the exact same thing happened with Star Wars, where George Lucas' implication and vision was stripped, and personalities like Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson sabotaged the legacy of Star Wars. It is no coincidence that it also involves a badass female character with the personality of cardboard which was used to man-shame the classic, traditional male leads. We know it's not a coincidence because these people have gone on the record to affirm this agenda. This is happening at Disney, and also at Sony, and with all the big players in Hollywood. Unfortunately it is starting to creep into games, and it's up to gamers to stand up to identity politics being injected into a creative art form in order to send subliminal messages to people. It's wrong, it should be called out and shamed.

We know that this is happening with Sony just as with Disney due to the Anonymous leaks and the e-mail messages communicated at the highest levels of management related to Ghostbusters, the all-female remake. I hope people will continue to wake up to this kind of mind control and continue to peacefully revolt, be it via social media or via underground groups.

Last edited by padib - on 19 June 2020

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padib said:
shikamaru317 said:

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of the direction that Naughty Dog has been headed down for awhile now. Ever since Bruce and Neil forced Amy Hennig out of the company and stole Uncharted 4 from her, I've seen a definite directional shift at the company. Uncharted 4 wasn't too bad, though definitely not as good 1-3, but you could already see the seeds of Naughty Dog's directional shift in that game, starting with Nadine (who Amy Hennig claims didn't exist in her Uncharted 4). A badass female character isn't a bad thing, but it has to feel believable, and Nadine crossed into the realm of unbelievable when she kicked the shit out of both Nathan and Sam at the same time later in the game. The directional shift continued with Uncharted Lost Legacy, with the controversial return of Nadine in an even larger role, as well as many having concerns about Chloe's sex appeal being toned down.

But TLOU 2 takes this directional shift to the extreme. It not only seems to be the most "woke" AAA game ever made, it is up there with some of the woke indies. I'm not even a TLOU fan, I only like Uncharted, but from an outsiders perspective, I think if I was a fan of the first game, I would be pretty pissed at the direction this game takes the story in, the things that are done to the characters from the first (I have read a full plot overview that seems to be accurate). I won't go into any details on this since this isn't a spoiler thread, and I won't be responding to anybody in this thread because I just don't have the energy to debate this stuff with anybody.

I'll just say that I hope the rumors that Sony gave the Uncharted IP to Sony San Diego and Sony San Mateo are true. I don't want to see Uncharted die, nor do I want to see it continue under Naughty Dog, considering the direction that Naughty Dog is moving in as a studio. Hopefully if that rumor is true, the 2 studios can bring back what made Uncharted 1-3 so special, rather that is in the form of a new series about Cassie Drake or further spinoffs focused on side characters like Nadine/Chloe, Sam/Sully, or Charlie Cutter doesn't matter to me so much, I just want good writing and good characters that don't come across as forced. 

@bold. Almost the exact same thing happened with Star Wars, where George Lucas' implication and vision was stripped, and personalities like Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson sabotaged the legacy of Star Wars. It is no coincidence that it also involves a badass female character with the personality of cardboard which was used to man-shame the classic, traditional male leads. We know it's not a coincidence because these people have gone on the record to affirm this agenda. This is happening at Disney, and also at Sony, and with all the big players in Hollywood. Unfortunately it is starting to creep into games, and it's up to gamers to stand up to identity politics being injected into a creative art form in order to send subliminal messages to people. It's wrong, it should be called out and shamed.

We know that this is happening with Sony just as with Disney due to the Anonymous leaks and the e-mail messages communicated at the highest levels of management related to Ghostbusters, the all-female remake. I hope people will continue to wake up to this kind of mind control and continue to peacefully revolt, be it via social media or via underground groups.

Yep, when it is forced it usually ends up damaging the product itself.

I'll rather watch an original show made entirelly on the premisse of LGBT+, black community, feminism talk points than changing an existing one to talk about it be to increase reach, please media or whatever. Like Grey's Anatomy which my wife loves and I like, it is obvious that the three themes are very important and you can see how silly it is portrayed in the show, but the story is mostly fine and engaging so I can enjoy it. Star Wars on the other hand I can only laugh on how bad it became because it changes so much that it loses credibility (internal coherence).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

padib said:
shikamaru317 said:

I'll just say that I'm not a fan of the direction that Naughty Dog has been headed down for awhile now. Ever since Bruce and Neil forced Amy Hennig out of the company and stole Uncharted 4 from her, I've seen a definite directional shift at the company. Uncharted 4 wasn't too bad, though definitely not as good 1-3, but you could already see the seeds of Naughty Dog's directional shift in that game, starting with Nadine (who Amy Hennig claims didn't exist in her Uncharted 4). A badass female character isn't a bad thing, but it has to feel believable, and Nadine crossed into the realm of unbelievable when she kicked the shit out of both Nathan and Sam at the same time later in the game. The directional shift continued with Uncharted Lost Legacy, with the controversial return of Nadine in an even larger role, as well as many having concerns about Chloe's sex appeal being toned down.

But TLOU 2 takes this directional shift to the extreme. It not only seems to be the most "woke" AAA game ever made, it is up there with some of the woke indies. I'm not even a TLOU fan, I only like Uncharted, but from an outsiders perspective, I think if I was a fan of the first game, I would be pretty pissed at the direction this game takes the story in, the things that are done to the characters from the first (I have read a full plot overview that seems to be accurate). I won't go into any details on this since this isn't a spoiler thread, and I won't be responding to anybody in this thread because I just don't have the energy to debate this stuff with anybody.

I'll just say that I hope the rumors that Sony gave the Uncharted IP to Sony San Diego and Sony San Mateo are true. I don't want to see Uncharted die, nor do I want to see it continue under Naughty Dog, considering the direction that Naughty Dog is moving in as a studio. Hopefully if that rumor is true, the 2 studios can bring back what made Uncharted 1-3 so special, rather that is in the form of a new series about Cassie Drake or further spinoffs focused on side characters like Nadine/Chloe, Sam/Sully, or Charlie Cutter doesn't matter to me so much, I just want good writing and good characters that don't come across as forced. 

@bold. Almost the exact same thing happened with Star Wars, where George Lucas' implication and vision was stripped, and personalities like Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson sabotaged the legacy of start wars. It is no coincidence that it also implies a badass female character was used man-shame the classic, traditional male leads. We know it's not a coincidence because these people have gone on the record to affirm this agenda. This is happening at Disney, and also at Sony, and with all the big players in Hollywood. Unfortunately it is starting to creep into games, and it's up to gamers to stand up to identity politics being injected into a creative art form in order to send subliminal messages to people. It's wrong, it should be called out and shamed.

We know that this is happening with Sony just as with Disney due to the Anonymous leaks and the e-mail messages communicated at the highest levels of management related to Ghostbusters, the all-female remake. I hope people will continue to wake up to this kind of mind control and continue to peacefully revolt, be it via social media or via underground groups.

Yeah, the parallels between the Naughty Dog situation and the LucasFilm situation are definitely noticeable. Amy Hennig is like George Lucas in alot of ways. She mentored Bruce and to a lesser degree Neil, as they worked under her on earlier Uncharted games. Likewise, Lucas mentored Kathleen Kennedy when they were working together on the Indiana Jones series. When Lucas decided to sell to Disney, he was happy that his protege Kathleen was being put in charge of LucasFilm in his absence. But quickly she showed her true colors, and set about disassembling everything that was good about Star Wars and replacing it with woke identity politics. The situation with Amy is a bit different, but basically her two proteges (Bruce and Neil) usurped control of her own IP away from her, forcing both her and her Uncharted 3/4 co-director Justin Richmond to leave the studio. 

I don't even really think the problem is Bruce. He did a great job co-directing Uncharted 2 with Amy Hennig, and Uncharted 4 was pretty good as well. And while I'm personally not a fan of TLOU 1, mainly because of the gameplay not being my cup of tea, I hear it's story was quite good. The problem seems to be Neil, not Bruce. TLOU 2 is Neil's first game directing project without Bruce, and it seems like a total shitshow from what I've read about the plot. Neil has straight up said that one of his influences is Anita Sarkeesian, I can't think of a worse person to be influenced by in the gaming industry. 

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 19 June 2020

shikamaru317 said:
padib said:

@bold. Almost the exact same thing happened with Star Wars, where George Lucas' implication and vision was stripped, and personalities like Kathleen Kennedy and Ryan Johnson sabotaged the legacy of start wars. It is no coincidence that it also implies a badass female character was used man-shame the classic, traditional male leads. We know it's not a coincidence because these people have gone on the record to affirm this agenda. This is happening at Disney, and also at Sony, and with all the big players in Hollywood. Unfortunately it is starting to creep into games, and it's up to gamers to stand up to identity politics being injected into a creative art form in order to send subliminal messages to people. It's wrong, it should be called out and shamed.

We know that this is happening with Sony just as with Disney due to the Anonymous leaks and the e-mail messages communicated at the highest levels of management related to Ghostbusters, the all-female remake. I hope people will continue to wake up to this kind of mind control and continue to peacefully revolt, be it via social media or via underground groups.

Yeah, the parallels between the Naughty Dog situation and the LucasFilm situation are definitely noticeable. Amy Hennig is like George Lucan in alot of ways. She mentored Bruce and to a lesser degree Neil, as they worked under her on earlier Uncharted games. Likewise, Lucas mentored Kathleen Kennedy when they were working together on the Indiana Jones series. When Lucas decided to sell to Disney, he was happy that his protege Kathleen was being put in charge of LucasFilm in his absence. But quickly she showed her true colors, and set about disassembling everything that was good about Star Wars and replacing it with woke identity politics. The situation with Amy is a bit different, but basically her two proteges (Bruce and Neil) usurped control of her own IP away from her, forcing both her and her Uncharted 3/4 co-director Justin Richmond to leave the studio. 

I don't even really think the problem is Bruce. He did a great job co-directing Uncharted 2 with Amy Hennig, and Uncharted 4 was pretty good as well. And while I'm personally not a fan of TLOU 1, mainly because of the gameplay not being my cup of tea, I hear it's story was quite good. The problem seems to be Neil, not Bruce. TLOU 2 is Neil's first game directing project without Bruce, and it seems like a total shitshow from what I've read about the plot. Neil has straight up said that one of his influences is Anita Sarkessian, I can't think of a worse person to be influenced by in the gaming industry. 

With EA fucking up the Amy's projects MS would be silly not to open a studio for her. And Sony stupid if they don't give her a studio or a team of similar level of ND.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

Yeah, the parallels between the Naughty Dog situation and the LucasFilm situation are definitely noticeable. Amy Hennig is like George Lucan in alot of ways. She mentored Bruce and to a lesser degree Neil, as they worked under her on earlier Uncharted games. Likewise, Lucas mentored Kathleen Kennedy when they were working together on the Indiana Jones series. When Lucas decided to sell to Disney, he was happy that his protege Kathleen was being put in charge of LucasFilm in his absence. But quickly she showed her true colors, and set about disassembling everything that was good about Star Wars and replacing it with woke identity politics. The situation with Amy is a bit different, but basically her two proteges (Bruce and Neil) usurped control of her own IP away from her, forcing both her and her Uncharted 3/4 co-director Justin Richmond to leave the studio. 

I don't even really think the problem is Bruce. He did a great job co-directing Uncharted 2 with Amy Hennig, and Uncharted 4 was pretty good as well. And while I'm personally not a fan of TLOU 1, mainly because of the gameplay not being my cup of tea, I hear it's story was quite good. The problem seems to be Neil, not Bruce. TLOU 2 is Neil's first game directing project without Bruce, and it seems like a total shitshow from what I've read about the plot. Neil has straight up said that one of his influences is Anita Sarkessian, I can't think of a worse person to be influenced by in the gaming industry. 

With EA fucking up the Amy's projects MS would be silly not to open a studio for her. And Sony stupid if they don't give her a studio or a team of similar level of ND.

Yeah, I'm truly shocked that MS hasn't given her a ton of money to head up a new AAA studio for them. Would be a good way to win over some Sony fans and strengthen their own 1st party. 



ND for me is a good representation of why the left destroys everything it touches. There is a strong need in not create something new, but always destroy what is already established and people love so from the ashes of it something "better" can flourish. If TLOU2 is the direction modern games are going, then unfortunately I believe it's not for me, thank God we still have Japan and I still have a huge backlog of games to play.


Since U4 ND has been showing why people hate forced diversity in games, starting with Nadine, then the girl power in Lost Legacy and now the climax with TLOU2. The sex scene of Abby which was basically gross. I dont even know if she is really a woman anymore since its clear she has no boobs, maybe those scenes with her as a kid she was a boy, just as Lev was a girl. So that scene would be basically anal sex. But it's all right, it's a left leaning game so they have a free pass to do whatever they want. And everything in the game is forced and it's all against the evil white male. I'm black btw. Well, half black.


I wont play or buy this game, and probably won't be playing Naughty Dog games anymore as it is clear the same route will be used also in future uncharted games and their future IP's. Creating a great a fun game is not important anymore, the political message must come first.
And you know what? If most people think this is alright and like it, so be it.