By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
elazz on 22 June 2020
haxxiy said:
shikamaru317 said:

Good Diversity

  • Settings where it makes sense
  • Good character development for minority characters
  • Don't make inclusiveness focus of your marketing or brag about it how you have it

Bad Diversity

  • Shoehorning diversity into settings where it doesn't make sense
  • Changing the races of established characters just so you can have a minority character
  • Bragging about your diverse cast
  • Adding minority characters just for the brownie points, then giving them crappy character development

These are sensible, but like you mentioned in a previous post, you seem inclined to consider any PoC character that's undeveloped as someone that's just there for the sake of it. On all likelihood, the number of undeveloped white male characters, often deliberately tacked in in older works to thread more familiar market ground, is far greater and yet you didn't seem bothered by them.

Exactly!!
It is not an issue of inclusivess. More than half of all story based characters lack any depth, might not be well written or is completely pointless. Doesn't matter where that person is from or what they believe in.

The only thing you can blame Naughty Dog is that some characters might not have been on par with previous ones they wrote but they were far from bad. The game is quite amazing even considering that. I give it a solid 9/10.



Stories unfolded with my home made rap songs. Feel free to listen here with lyrics: https://youtu.be/vyT9PbK5_T0

Around the Network
Hynad on 22 June 2020
Dante9 said:
You'd have to be blind not to see that ND's storytelling has suffered because of their agenda and the things they have to crowbar in there no matter what. Most gamers don't have a problem with minorities in games, but there's a wrong way and a right way to do these things. These characters need to be introduced organically within the story, but the story needs to be the main focus, not the individual traits of a given minority character.
Actually, the first TLOU was a good example of how to do it right. Bill happened to be gay, but we learned that naturally during the story, getting to know him like we would anyone else. Just "Oh, he's gay. Okay." It was just a part of Bill that we learned about along the way, it was not this big presentation and song and dance. It was not a selling point for the game beforehand, like "look, we have a gay here, aren't we stunning and brave?" "Buy this game, because we have gay this and trans that and whatnot." "Oh, there's a story too, but have you seen the gay?". The ironic thing is, it seems that most members of minorities would like to be represented like Bill was, rather than be the center of attention and used as a tool to lecture the gaming community with. How is that normalizing? It's not, it's virtue signaling and it just creates more resentment towards these groups that don't need any more resentment in their lives and mostly didn't ask to be used in this way. They just want to play good games like the rest of us and occasionally see characters like themselves without a huge show bein made about it. Just occurring normally. These companies do this for their own benefit, make no mistake, and they don't understand they are doing more harm than good. It's just stupid.
And this thing about Neil Druckmann and his physically overpowering female characters.. It almost feels like a personal fetish of his at this point, don't you think? Like Tarantino and his foot fetish. Just saying.. :)

How do you feel about the Uncharted series showing Elena and Nate having romantic moments and kissing throughout the series? Are Naughty Dog pushing an agenda there as well?



eva01beserk on 22 June 2020
RolStoppable said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
I can’t tell if the outrage is because of the inclusion and woke culture or people just disappointed in the horrible narrative.

It's a lot of both, but the main motivation is going to shift over time. Pre-release of the game, it was much more about woke culture, simply because the leak wasn't entirely comprehensive and therefore allowed for the possibility that the narrative could ultimately turn out good anyway. During the past weekend the complaints about the narrative caught up to the bigotry, but very soon the narrative will be the entire focal point as more and more people will reach the end of the game and begin to jump into spoiler discussions.

The people who defend The Last of Us Part II will soon have to come up with actual arguments instead of brushing off criticism as bigotry.

Perfectly put. Something tells me that they cant. There are full streams already out if I remember correctly. People have pointed to very specific instances for criticism and no real response has been made that dosent really include calling someone a racist or an xbox fan. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

iron_megalith on 22 June 2020
elazz said:

I'm so confused. Not about the game but about people saying this game has a certain political agenda.

First I don't understand how general inclusiveness is a political thing. Especially when it concerns what those employees believe in at Naughty Dog. Seems all quite normal in 2020. As long as you are honest, fair, try to add improve something of yourself or around you one step at a time it doesn't matter what your orientation is or what your believes are.

Although even crazier is the game. I don't see a single moment where a certain agenda is pushed. A couple kisses by two females, reference of a gay flag or playing as a muscular woman are such a small percentage of the game. I don't even understand why that's such a big deal. Those are actually quite normal things.

That Dina is a bit of a boring character has nothing to do with any of these "agenda's, politics". It is more of a writing issue and in most games you have these characters. In Uncharted; in Horizon, in Mass Effect. And actually Dina isn't that bad. Just nothing too special.

I assume you were referring to my post. So I'll reply back.

If the characters were not gay, would it have made TLOU any less good? Hard to say. Obviously, some of the lovable character's behaviors and actions hinged on their respective identity. But there's absolutely no proof they can't craft a story that had a different take on the character's identity.

Does it elevate the experience any further because "we're so diverse!"? Absolutely fucking not. Time and time again, it is proven that if you try to sell "diversity" as one of your story's main selling point, it really doesn't fucking matter when it's hot garbage. If you were aware, Batwoman was a really hyped show and it touted the character's identity as as one of the key points. Fast Forward today, show's in hot water due to very low ratings. And some people are blaming that society is just a bunch of bigots and easily disregarding the possibility that perhaps people just didn't find the show interesting.

For TLOU, I remember everyone was cheering how it was a victory for LGBT community that even if I remember correctly, Neil was touting it as well. Nothing bad about it.  The problem is when Neil himself had a very vocal stance against against people that criticized the presentation of Ellie's identity and just threw in a very simplistic rhetoric of calling these criticisms coming from homophobes. There were different opinions about Ellie's reveal. Some liked it. Some did not. But majority of which, everyone who did not like it can be easily labeled as a Homophobe.

By the way, there is one thing that I found really eyebrow raising and funny in the story.

Spoiler!
Ellie was able to forgive Abby for killing Joel but cannot forgive a "stereotypical old bigot white male" that offered their apologies(sincere or not) and gave her a sandwich along with it.

You would be surprised how many non white male or female are against homosexuality. But yes, it's easy to relate to people when it's an old white man that's doing it. Now whether that particular scene added anything to the story, I would argue it never made any fucking sense. The only thing that mattered there again was Joel and Ellie's interaction.
Last edited by iron_megalith - on 22 June 2020

Zoombael on 23 June 2020
Hynad said:
Dante9 said:
You'd have to be blind not to see that ND's storytelling has suffered because of their agenda and the things they have to crowbar in there no matter what. Most gamers don't have a problem with minorities in games, but there's a wrong way and a right way to do these things. These characters need to be introduced organically within the story, but the story needs to be the main focus, not the individual traits of a given minority character.
Actually, the first TLOU was a good example of how to do it right. Bill happened to be gay, but we learned that naturally during the story, getting to know him like we would anyone else. Just "Oh, he's gay. Okay." It was just a part of Bill that we learned about along the way, it was not this big presentation and song and dance. It was not a selling point for the game beforehand, like "look, we have a gay here, aren't we stunning and brave?" "Buy this game, because we have gay this and trans that and whatnot." "Oh, there's a story too, but have you seen the gay?". The ironic thing is, it seems that most members of minorities would like to be represented like Bill was, rather than be the center of attention and used as a tool to lecture the gaming community with. How is that normalizing? It's not, it's virtue signaling and it just creates more resentment towards these groups that don't need any more resentment in their lives and mostly didn't ask to be used in this way. They just want to play good games like the rest of us and occasionally see characters like themselves without a huge show bein made about it. Just occurring normally. These companies do this for their own benefit, make no mistake, and they don't understand they are doing more harm than good. It's just stupid.
And this thing about Neil Druckmann and his physically overpowering female characters.. It almost feels like a personal fetish of his at this point, don't you think? Like Tarantino and his foot fetish. Just saying.. :)

How do you feel about the Uncharted series showing Elena and Nate having romantic moments and kissing throughout the series? Are Naughty Dog pushing an agenda there as well?

Hm. Although he explained it quite comprehensively you burried his point in a pile of ignorance.

Tlou has two good examples. Ellies "coming out" is no secret. Does it needs to be mentioned to further make a point? I don't know. Would it matter?

As normal as Bill being portrait as a gay man, so was Ellies character development. As "normal" as Nates and Elenas relationship was portrait. Nobody cared. There was no huge hubbub. In Cyberpunk 2077 there will be gay/trans player characters. Again, nobody seem to mind. One reason could be a futuristic cyberpunk society where body augmentation is practically buying gum from a vending machine, authentically going hand in hand with cyberpunk philosophy. It is another text book example of how it's done correctly. And it appears the hype for the game is still through the roof. For now. Do you think it will get review bombed to oblivion as well? It certainly will if we to believe the reason why Tlou2 gets so much flack by the fan base and gamer community is homo-/transsexuality.

Not that i expect an answer. But i'd like to know: How many heterosexual relationships in videogames and heterosexuality in general as a main focal point can you name? Of how many video game characters sexual orientation do you know of? What's the sexual orientation of Claire Redfield for example. Are Link and Zelda a couple? I don't know. I don't care. It never have seemed to be important. But not any more it doesn't not. Now it matters how mucho heterosexual video games are.



Hunting Season is done...

Around the Network
KLXVER on 23 June 2020

I still dont get the criticisms tbh.

-They are hitting you over the head with the fact that Ellie is gay?

No, they dont. She is in love with a woman and you see their relationship being tested in a cruel world. Not sure what is forced here...

-Forced diversity?

What does that even mean? America is a very diverse country. Seems appropriate to me. Also its a video game. You are allowed to make the characters as diverse as you want.


If you complain about this stuff, then how are you better than people who hates on games for less diversity? Or games with nudity or violence?

I was worried for much of my playthrough because I thought up some scenarios were the game would become ridiculous SJW propaganda. It worried me and it made me enjoy it a bit less. Not much, but still. Turns out this is what people were angry about? Diverse characters and 2 gay women? Ridiculous.

I can understand if you didnt like the story or the characters or you found the gameplay boring, but there is no SJW agenda here. Move on.







Hynad on 23 June 2020
Zoombael said:
Hynad said:

How do you feel about the Uncharted series showing Elena and Nate having romantic moments and kissing throughout the series? Are Naughty Dog pushing an agenda there as well?

Hm. Although he explained it quite comprehensively you burried his point in a pile of ignorance.

Tlou has two good examples. Ellies "coming out" is no secret. Does it needs to be mentioned to further make a point? I don't know. Would it matter?

As normal as Bill being portrait as a gay man, so was Ellies character development. As "normal" as Nates and Elenas relationship was portrait. Nobody cared. There was no huge hubbub. In Cyberpunk 2077 there will be gay/trans player characters. Again, nobody seem to mind. One reason could be a futuristic cyberpunk society where body augmentation is practically buying gum from a vending machine, authentically going hand in hand with cyberpunk philosophy. It is another text book example of how it's done correctly. And it appears the hype for the game is still through the roof. For now. Do you think it will get review bombed to oblivion as well? It certainly will if we to believe the reason why Tlou2 gets so much flack by the fan base and gamer community is homo-/transsexuality.

Not that i expect an answer. But i'd like to know: How many heterosexual relationships in videogames and heterosexuality in general as a main focal point can you name? Of how many video game characters sexual orientation do you know of? What's the sexual orientation of Claire Redfield for example. Are Link and Zelda a couple? I don't know. I don't care. It never have seemed to be important. But not any more it doesn't not. Now it matters how mucho heterosexual video games are.

I ask a simple question, to which you say it’s a pile of ignorance (ok, sure, mate lol), but then you go on to write one of the most ignorant comment about this.

Talk about rich.  



Dante9 on 23 June 2020
Xxain said:
Dante9 said:
You'd have to be blind not to see that ND's storytelling has suffered because of their agenda and the things they have to crowbar in there no matter what. Most gamers don't have a problem with minorities in games, but there's a wrong way and a right way to do these things. These characters need to be introduced organically within the story, but the story needs to be the main focus, not the individual traits of a given minority character.
Actually, the first TLOU was a good example of how to do it right. Bill happened to be gay, but we learned that naturally during the story, getting to know him like we would anyone else. Just "Oh, he's gay. Okay." It was just a part of Bill that we learned about along the way, it was not this big presentation and song and dance. It was not a selling point for the game beforehand, like "look, we have a gay here, aren't we stunning and brave?" "Buy this game, because we have gay this and trans that and whatnot." "Oh, there's a story too, but have you seen the gay?". The ironic thing is, it seems that most members of minorities would like to be represented like Bill was, rather than be the center of attention and used as a tool to lecture the gaming community with. How is that normalizing? It's not, it's virtue signaling and it just creates more resentment towards these groups that don't need any more resentment in their lives and mostly didn't ask to be used in this way. They just want to play good games like the rest of us and occasionally see characters like themselves without a huge show being made about it. Just occurring normally. These companies do this for their own benefit, make no mistake, and they don't understand they are doing more harm than good. It's just stupid.
And this thing about Neil Druckmann and his physically overpowering female characters.. It almost feels like a personal fetish of his at this point, don't you think? Like Tarantino and his foot fetish. Just saying.. :)

Ok. This is actually the best attempt at explaining the other side in the entire thread and I agree with 90%. I would much rather a black character be written to a character in the story vs written to be the token black character in the story. The originally Walking dead series by Telltale is a excellent example.

    But how fucking childish and mentality under-developed do you have to be to have a video make you resent minorities? So video games are not responsible violence, but  can lead to minority resentment.

Ok. Noted.

That's one of the factors here, there are under-developed people who have prejudices against minorities to start with, and when this kind of crap is inserted into the gaming industry, it fans the flames even more for those people. They feel like the gays are coming to mess with their games and calling them names, and it's misdirected resentment because actually it's the companies who are stirring up trouble using minorities as their icons in order to make themselves look oh so good and virtuous.

One might argue, though, that the actual starting point is the loud minority of extreme social justice activists who these companies are trying to prove their holiness to, and that's how the whole cycle begins. So maybe in a way it *is* coming from the minorities, but one has to understand that these activist do not represent most members of said minorities, they are just so loud on Twitter and such places that it seems a much larger issue than it actually is, and the companies get roped into the mess that way, trying to please everyone, which is impossible.



Dante9 on 23 June 2020
LudicrousSpeed said:
I can’t tell if the outrage is because of the inclusion and woke culture or people just disappointed in the horrible narrative.

It's overwhelmingly about the narrative. Even if every character in the game were just plain ol' heterosexuals and there were no political agendas whatsoever to be found, the way the beloved characters are treated is just massively disappointing and off-putting, especially after seven years of waiting. The whole dynamic that made the first game so well liked is completely obliterated in the sequel. It's weird, like either Druckmann doesn't understand what made the first game tick, or that he somehow became so overwhelmed by having to improve upon the former perfection that he imploded and found no other recourse than to deconstruct the whole thing. Like he knew he couldn't top what he had done before, so he decided to piss in the pool before the fans got to it first.

Maybe the Last of Us is one of those things that should have been a one-off, no sequels needed.



Dante9 on 23 June 2020
Soundwave said:

Conservatives are now in their "well OK you can exist, just sit in the corner and don't be too loud about it because people too different from me make me uncomfortable" phase, a step up from the "you can't exist without being full on subjugated" phase which they know they can't justify any longer since its not the 1960s or even 1980s anymore. 

No, at this point it's more like "I've had just about enough of being called names, vilified and sidelined from the discussion by this new, authoritarian nightmare cult that wants to purge everyone that is not extreme left."