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Forums - Politics Discussion - (POSSIBLE SPOILERS INSIDE) The agenda and political discussion of Naughty Dog

 

Have politics damaged the quality of ND games

No 39 41.94%
 
Yes 54 58.06%
 
Total:93
DonFerrari said:
LudicrousSpeed said:
I can’t tell if the outrage is because of the inclusion and woke culture or people just disappointed in the horrible narrative.

Considering the game have 7k reviews on PSN with average 4,5/5 versus 50k reviews on metacritic with average 3,9/10 I would say it is mostly column A.

Not saying that it explains the difference because it does not, but around 3k reviews were already made to the game giving it a 5 prior to release, because it seems you can review the game as soon as you start the pre-download. People were commenting about it and posting screenshots of the review page on telegram before the game being released. I may be wrong though.



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iron_megalith said:

That ending. Holy fucking shit... I just can't....

Spoiler!
She gets a change of heart when she was about to kill Abby?? Meanwhile the amount of people she has killed just to get to that point never even made her realize what's going on? LMAO! BRAVO DRUCKMANN!

Also, I hate Dina. She's just so flat and boring. That pregnancy reveal bullshit was downright hilarious. That shit came out of the left field.

Abby... I just can't connect to her. She is just flat out deranged. Not even the parts where there seems to be some sort of "human" side to her makes me feel anything.

I don't know how anyone can defend the writing in this game. This is just really fucking bad. This is what I think the story should have been.

Spoiler!
The last flash back with Joel was a powerful one. It should have been the core story of the game. Joel getting that one forgiveness that truly matters to him. Disregarding everyone else, Joel truly robbed Ellie of a purpose. That could have been a more interesting take into this matter that could continue on with what TLOU1 has left us.

I wasn't mad that Joel died in this game. In fact I believe that he should be killed off to put a proper ending to this series. It makes sense from a karma point of view. What he did will have consequences and will eventually catch onto him. However, what Druckmann did was a huge kick in the nuts and a disrespect to the beloved character. If he thought people were just going to get shocked by that, he definitely misjudged that.

This shit is really all over the place. The signs were there in Uncharted 4. The writing was a tad stupid in that game. But it was nowhere near this level.

Now onto the topic at hand, I think Neil Druckmann put his political correct agendas first before crafting an actual good story. The sexuality of the characters are not so important. If he crafted a game with these characters and delivered a really good story, I don't fucking mind. More power to them. But this thing, it goes way beyond the actual game and how he behaves on social media and such. So yes, I agree that his agendas affected the quality of ND games in negative way.

Your review sums-up exactly the feeling I'm reading from people that disliked the game with the same explanations, from either people that played until the end and people that just watched a stream.



jardesonbarbosa said:
I don't agree with that. They just were never that good to begin with in terms of storytelling. I actually don't understand how people can say Uncharted 1-3 are perfect, but 4 sucks, and worst of all, citing Nadine as one of the problems. Because she beats up pretty boy Nathan? That's the biggest problem with that game? That's BS. That whole game is a trainwreck. I think people only started picking flaws on ND games because the games introduced things those people don't want to see (like minorities). Let's be honest, Uncharted 2 was not that good. The story was stupid and the game itself, while polished, was a basic third person cover/shooter, the only reason people are complaing now, is because the games are not pandering to them anymore.



jardesonbarbosa said:
I don't agree with that. They just were never that good to begin with in terms of storytelling. I actually don't understand how people can say Uncharted 1-3 are perfect, but 4 sucks, and worst of all, citing Nadine as one of the problems. Because she beats up pretty boy Nathan? That's the biggest problem with that game? That's BS. That whole game is a trainwreck. I think people only started picking flaws on ND games because the games introduced things those people don't want to see (like minorities). Let's be honest, Uncharted 2 was not that good. The story was stupid and the game itself, while polished, was a basic third person cover/shooter, the only reason people are complaing now, is because the games are not pandering to them anymore.

Please see the recomendation to talk ND games not things tangent to it.

EnricoPallazzo said:
DonFerrari said:

Considering the game have 7k reviews on PSN with average 4,5/5 versus 50k reviews on metacritic with average 3,9/10 I would say it is mostly column A.

Not saying that it explains the difference because it does not, but around 3k reviews were already made to the game giving it a 5 prior to release, because it seems you can review the game as soon as you start the pre-download. I may be wrong though.

And how would you compare to 40k reviews being with majority being 0 on metacritic put less than a day after the release of the game?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Runa216 said:
DonFerrari said:
Just a reminder. This thread is to discuss the perceived politics of ND and its effects on game development not to antagonize other users, groups, parties, etc. Please keep civil and discuss Naughty Dog games.

Exactly. I'm saying that inclusion is not a matter of politics but a natural progression of storytelling in the modern world and that including gay/trans characters to a narrative shouldn't be seen as a political statement. Because, you know, it's not. 

But you and others are saying it is. That's the problem here. Having queer characters in a game shouldn't be some point of contention, it should be a perfectly viable, and normal way to tell stories. That's how we remove the stigma associated with it, by normalizing it. The arguments I'm contesting are the ones that maintain the status quo by acting like literally any inclusion of queer characters is some SJW agenda and should be treated as a political issue. To make matters worse, just like @Soundwave said, the talking points around the issue have shifted becuase it's agreed on a widespread level that you can't just say 'get the gays out of our game' anymore, so now people are twisting these points and these stories so that they can justify their bigotry by claiming it's 'bad writing' or 'hamfisted character inclusion' when it's no worse than straight male inclusion. It's just another character archetype, not a goddamn political statement.

I have yet to see an ACTUAL argument about the game's story that didn't circle back to 'b-b-b-but my sensibilities! SJW propaganda!' Many try to avoid it, but it's not hard to read between the lines. 

Personally, I absolutely hate The Last of Us, but it's not for the story/writing. I always found the gameplay to be boring and mundane and frustrating. I always found that the gameplay only ever existed to perpetuate the plot...but I always felt the plot was outstandingly well-written and well-presented. the game's visuals, audio, and storytelling elements were all top-of-class and I acknowledged that while also not liking the games becuase I care more about gameplay than the other elements in a game. People forgave the bland and lacklustre gameplay elements becuase the story and character work was so good. but now? Now that Ellie's sexuality and various other progressive inclusions are a part of the story, suddenly everyone hates their writing? 

Naw, I don't buy it. I've experienced the modern political climate long enough to not trust that. I've been on the internet long enough that I have no doubt in my mind that this assault on The Last of Us Part II has nothing to do with the actual writing/storytelling and almost everything to do with the perceived SJW agenda of the development team. This fan hatred is nothing more than thinly veiled bigotry masquerading as legitimate criticism. 

Again, if you and others could accept that this is truly about your discomfort and resistance of progress, then maybe we could have a productive discussion about it. But instead of actually explaining yourself, you're just playing the victim to try and get sympathy points while calling me a meanie for expecting you to be held accountable for your regressive beliefs all while being purposefully disingenuous about your opinions on the matter and attempting to justify the backlash. It's not helpful. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you don't agree with the direction of the story, don't watch a playthrough of it. but for the love of progress, please don't try to hold the rest of us back with your regressive views and play the victim when you're called out on it. 

**Edit** I got DonFerrari and EnricoPallazoo mixed up. My bad. Assume all my points in this post were directed at Enrico, not DonFerrari. I am unsure of DonFerrari's stance on the matter. 

Read what I've written about the game. None of my issues have anything to do with politics. A lot of the issues I've seen people bring up here have had little to do with the games politics. I think you are coming on here in bad faith.



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DonFerrari said:
jardesonbarbosa said:
I don't agree with that. They just were never that good to begin with in terms of storytelling. I actually don't understand how people can say Uncharted 1-3 are perfect, but 4 sucks, and worst of all, citing Nadine as one of the problems. Because she beats up pretty boy Nathan? That's the biggest problem with that game? That's BS. That whole game is a trainwreck. I think people only started picking flaws on ND games because the games introduced things those people don't want to see (like minorities). Let's be honest, Uncharted 2 was not that good. The story was stupid and the game itself, while polished, was a basic third person cover/shooter, the only reason people are complaing now, is because the games are not pandering to them anymore.

Please see the recomendation to talk ND games not things tangent to it.

EnricoPallazzo said:

Not saying that it explains the difference because it does not, but around 3k reviews were already made to the game giving it a 5 prior to release, because it seems you can review the game as soon as you start the pre-download. I may be wrong though.

And how would you compare to 40k reviews being with majority being 0 on metacritic put less than a day after the release of the game?

As I said, those 3k before the game released does not explain the difference, of course, just that on psn the game also has probably a grade that its higher than it should be at this moment. We will se when more people review it.

As for the 40k reviews on metacritic (I believe already 10k were already erased) its just a bunch of people with too much time in their hands. Giving anything below 5 for this game makes absolutely no sense. From a technical point of view it is a masterpiece and this alone would guarantee at least a 6.

But considering this is a story driven game and in my opinion, along with many others, the story is absolutely terrible, plus the misleading marketing and etc I can understand people giving it a 5-7. 

Below this is pure nonsense or just kids with too much time in their hands.

By the way, believe me the hate is guided mostly to the story, not gender politics. Other games with different genders including left behind are pretty aligned between critics and players on metacritic.



EnricoPallazzo said:
DonFerrari said:

Please see the recomendation to talk ND games not things tangent to it.

And how would you compare to 40k reviews being with majority being 0 on metacritic put less than a day after the release of the game?

As I said, those 3k before the game released does not explain the difference, of course, just that on psn the game also has probably a grade that its higher than it should be at this moment. We will se when more people review it.

As for the 40k reviews on metacritic (I believe already 10k were already erased) its just a bunch of people with too much time in their hands. Giving anything below 5 for this game makes absolutely no sense. From a technical point of view it is a masterpiece and this alone would guarantee at least a 6.

But considering this is a story driven game and in my opinion, along with many others, the story is absolutely terrible, plus the misleading marketing and etc I can understand people giving it a 5-7. 

Below this is pure nonsense or just kids with too much time in their hands.

By the way, believe me the hate is guided mostly to the story, not gender politics. Other games with different genders including left behind are pretty aligned between critics and players on metacritic.

I don`t really believe it is due to the story since most of the 0s and low scores were given before people had time to evaluate the game so it was mostly based on spoiler which doesn`t cover most of the story.

Misleading marketing is reaching, just like people claiming SE lied on their FFVIIR marketing because they made small changes to the story (they had announced the game being multiple releases and with changes to the story for over 3 years).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

I'm so confused. Not about the game but about people saying this game has a certain political agenda.

First I don't understand how general inclusiveness is a political thing. Especially when it concerns what those employees believe in at Naughty Dog. Seems all quite normal in 2020. As long as you are honest, fair, try to add improve something of yourself or around you one step at a time it doesn't matter what your orientation is or what your believes are.

Although even crazier is the game. I don't see a single moment where a certain agenda is pushed. A couple kisses by two females, reference of a gay flag or playing as a muscular woman are such a small percentage of the game. I don't even understand why that's such a big deal. Those are actually quite normal things.

That Dina is a bit of a boring character has nothing to do with any of these "agenda's, politics". It is more of a writing issue and in most games you have these characters. In Uncharted; in Horizon, in Mass Effect. And actually Dina isn't that bad. Just nothing too special.



Stories unfolded with my home made rap songs. Feel free to listen here with lyrics: https://youtu.be/vyT9PbK5_T0

shikamaru317 said:

Good Diversity

  • Settings where it makes sense
  • Good character development for minority characters
  • Don't make inclusiveness focus of your marketing or brag about it how you have it

Bad Diversity

  • Shoehorning diversity into settings where it doesn't make sense
  • Changing the races of established characters just so you can have a minority character
  • Bragging about your diverse cast
  • Adding minority characters just for the brownie points, then giving them crappy character development

These are sensible, but like you mentioned in a previous post, you seem inclined to consider any PoC character that's undeveloped as someone that's just there for the sake of it. On all likelihood, the number of undeveloped white male characters, often deliberately tacked in in older works to thread more familiar market ground, is far greater and yet you didn't seem bothered by them.



 

 

 

 

 

DonFerrari said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

As I said, those 3k before the game released does not explain the difference, of course, just that on psn the game also has probably a grade that its higher than it should be at this moment. We will se when more people review it.

As for the 40k reviews on metacritic (I believe already 10k were already erased) its just a bunch of people with too much time in their hands. Giving anything below 5 for this game makes absolutely no sense. From a technical point of view it is a masterpiece and this alone would guarantee at least a 6.

But considering this is a story driven game and in my opinion, along with many others, the story is absolutely terrible, plus the misleading marketing and etc I can understand people giving it a 5-7. 

Below this is pure nonsense or just kids with too much time in their hands.

By the way, believe me the hate is guided mostly to the story, not gender politics. Other games with different genders including left behind are pretty aligned between critics and players on metacritic.

I don`t really believe it is due to the story since most of the 0s and low scores were given before people had time to evaluate the game so it was mostly based on spoiler which doesn`t cover most of the story.

Misleading marketing is reaching, just like people claiming SE lied on their FFVIIR marketing because they made small changes to the story (they had announced the game being multiple releases and with changes to the story for over 3 years).

The story had leaked weeks ago and all the leaks were true. People just didnt know Lev's arc and what happened at the ending of the game. People were already mad at that time. On the week of release the ending leaked and people got even more frustrated althoigh many refused to believe due to how bad it was. Around that time "that"  sex scene leaked. One day before release the footage of the ending leaked amd it was all true. So when people started writing the reviews on metacritic they already had the whole story pinned down including the ending. Believe me its not about gender politics, at least this time.