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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

It wont make much difference to third party games because probably devs will adjust the game based on XSX "limitation".
It's not that games will have an elevator in the xbox version, although the poorly PR prepared executive said that.
The difference will show on exclusives that sony will probably obligate them to make full use of it. Even then, in select exclusives. For a GT game for example there will be no difference.



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Pemalite said:
setsunatenshi said: 

I still does not make it a better performer, from what we hear right now it actually seems to perform worse. CPU on the ps5 isn't handling decompression or audio either, so there goes that 100MHz multithread advantage.

The Xbox Series X also has hardware decompression and also has hardware 3D positional Audio.

Let's see what it means when it comes to the actual games then.



Snoopy said:
DonFerrari said:

Source please.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/No-the-PS5-won-t-offer-anywhere-near-the-graphics-performance-of-Xbox-Series-X-Navi-benchmarks-prove-it.458625.0.html

Thanks for the article. very interesting and big if true, although I cant judge if the analysis they are making is correct or not.



I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

Last edited by shikamaru317 - on 09 June 2020

DonFerrari said:
Trunkin said:

I really don't understand why LOD, or whatever UE5's equivalent of LOD is, can't just be used instead of putting in a ~2 second elevator ride.

That is because the exec don't really understand game development.

And that is why you should take his statements with a grain of salt.

@shikamaru317. Excellent points



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tack50 said:
Honestly I would just expect developers to cater to the lowest common denominator. In this case expect both loading screens to adjust for slower SSDs in the XBX and lower graphics/resolutions to adjust for the PS5's lower power.

Though it will be easier to adjust for power than to adjust for loading screens and what not I believe, so maybe games will look a bit better on XBX but I do not think it would be a breaking point for most consumers

It really isn't about loading, it will more go to limiting the quality of assets so they can load within the same timeframe on both consoles.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

You are somewhat wrong. The improvements they put in Velocity Architeture (that they didn't detail) is sure to have some impact, but at the same time Sony put more into the I/O than simply a faster SSD. So even if the API or software wizardry helps somewhat the hardware optmization would still be above it (even more because the SW can be changed and improved over time), PS5 have more priority levels, more connections, better general compression, better direct access, etc.

Second you inverted the SSD expansion. For Sony you will be able to use third party SSDs (or HDs) for expansion or you can substitute the one in PS5 (or play directly from expansion) if the SSD have enough speed (as said by Mark Cerny you would need over 7Gb/s for similar performance if the SSD misses the priority levels) and form factor fits in the bay. But for MS you would have the same option fro expansion, but if you want to play directly from the SSD new gen games you would need propietary drive.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

That is patently not true, Cerny said at the time of his presentation no existing SSD was fast enough, but in the next year compatible SSDs will be made available and Sony will certify those to ensure they are up to the required specs. Besides you can always have the internal SSD as the one games run from, and use an external drive as cold storage. So both options are there, and nobody ever mentioned running PS5 games off of slow SSDs.

I don't even want to go to the rest of the post as it sounds a bit like wishful thinking bundled with some damage control on behalf of the XSX, so I'll mark it as opinion only.



setsunatenshi said:
shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

That is patently not true, Cerny said at the time of his presentation no existing SSD was fast enough, but in the next year compatible SSDs will be made available and Sony will certify those to ensure they are up to the required specs. Besides you can always have the internal SSD as the one games run from, and use an external drive as cold storage. So both options are there, and nobody ever mentioned running PS5 games off of slow SSDs.

I don't even want to go to the rest of the post as it sounds a bit like wishful thinking bundled with some damage control on behalf of the XSX, so I'll mark it as opinion only.

His post was mostly interesting and correct, except for the point about the SSD swapping (we know it's not true from the road to PS5 video).



DonFerrari said:
shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

You are somewhat wrong. The improvements they put in Velocity Architeture (that they didn't detail) is sure to have some impact, but at the same time Sony put more into the I/O than simply a faster SSD. So even if the API or software wizardry helps somewhat the hardware optmization would still be above it (even more because the SW can be changed and improved over time), PS5 have more priority levels, more connections, better general compression, better direct access, etc.

Second you inverted the SSD expansion. For Sony you will be able to use third party SSDs (or HDs) for expansion or you can substitute the one in PS5 (or play directly from expansion) if the SSD have enough speed (as said by Mark Cerny you would need over 7Gb/s for similar performance if the SSD misses the priority levels) and form factor fits in the bay. But for MS you would have the same option fro expansion, but if you want to play directly from the SSD new gen games you would need propietary drive.

They did detail what Velocity Architecture and DirectX12 Ultimate features will do for Series X, at least somewhat:

Microsoft's new custom SSD storage is central to Velocity Architecture on Xbox Series X, adopting an in-house NVMe solution, delivering unseen speeds in past generations. That provides 2.4 GB/s raw I/O throughput — or 4.8 GB/s compressed, enabled by a custom decompression block. Compared to the 120MB/s offered by Xbox One X, quick maths reveals up to 40 times increases could be a reality.

The hardware decompression block plays a vital role, allowing games to consume less space via compression on the SSD. That hardware is devoted to tackling run-time decompression, keeping games running smoothly without giving more work to the CPU. It uses Zlib, a general-purpose data-compression library, and a mysterious new system named "BCPack," geared to GPU textures.

We also have DirectStorage, building upon DirectX, and aimed at further reducing CPU workloads. The new Microsoft-built API seeks to optimize the efficiency of Xbox Series X asset streaming, with plans to expand to Windows devices moving forward. That couples with Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS), streamlining GPU usage and loading only portions of textures demanded by a setting. Both provide software solutions that enhance the efficiency of games on Xbox Series X, taking full advantage of CPU and GPU gains.

Yes, but MS is going to sell SSD cartridges that match the speed of the internal drive soon after the launch of the system, meaning that you will be able to install Series X games on your 2nd SSD with no disadvantages. Sony is not going to be selling SSD's that match the speed of their internal SSD, and we won't see off the shelf SSD's that have speeds over 7 GB/s for at least several more years, at least not ones that are affordable. Which basically means that you are limited to the the 825 GB internal SSD for the first several years of the generation, which will be more like 750 GB accessible by the player thanks to space taken up by the OS. You can expand PS5 storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, but you will basically only be able to install PS4 BC games to it, as PS5 games will be optimized to take full advantage of the faster internal drive, and therefore PS5 games would run like dog crap if you tried to play them from a slower off the shelf SSD.