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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

Snoopy said:
DonFerrari said:

Source please.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/No-the-PS5-won-t-offer-anywhere-near-the-graphics-performance-of-Xbox-Series-X-Navi-benchmarks-prove-it.458625.0.html

Thanks for the article. very interesting and big if true, although I cant judge if the analysis they are making is correct or not.



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tack50 said:
Honestly I would just expect developers to cater to the lowest common denominator. In this case expect both loading screens to adjust for slower SSDs in the XBX and lower graphics/resolutions to adjust for the PS5's lower power.

Though it will be easier to adjust for power than to adjust for loading screens and what not I believe, so maybe games will look a bit better on XBX but I do not think it would be a breaking point for most consumers

It really isn't about loading, it will more go to limiting the quality of assets so they can load within the same timeframe on both consoles.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

You are somewhat wrong. The improvements they put in Velocity Architeture (that they didn't detail) is sure to have some impact, but at the same time Sony put more into the I/O than simply a faster SSD. So even if the API or software wizardry helps somewhat the hardware optmization would still be above it (even more because the SW can be changed and improved over time), PS5 have more priority levels, more connections, better general compression, better direct access, etc.

Second you inverted the SSD expansion. For Sony you will be able to use third party SSDs (or HDs) for expansion or you can substitute the one in PS5 (or play directly from expansion) if the SSD have enough speed (as said by Mark Cerny you would need over 7Gb/s for similar performance if the SSD misses the priority levels) and form factor fits in the bay. But for MS you would have the same option fro expansion, but if you want to play directly from the SSD new gen games you would need propietary drive.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

shikamaru317 said:

I really don't think that the slower SSD is going to be a big issue for XSX. We're still looking at I believe a 40x I/O speed increase compared to the archaic 5400 RPM laptop hard drive that was used in base Xbox One, that is a massive increase. We also have to remember that MS claims to have worked a bit of software wizardry to partially offset the disadvantage of their slower SSD, with their Velocity Architecture which is designed to optimize texture streaming and reduce the CPU overhead of decompressing textures. Those claims could be secret sauce bunk, but if they turn out to be true it will offset alot of the disadvantage of the slower SSD. Xbox Series X also has access to DirectX12 Ultimate features, such as Direct Storage, which is designed to further optimize texture streaming.

We also have to remember that 3rd party multiplat devs always try to make things simple for themselves and optimize for the lowest common denominator, then scale up from there, the vast majority of them are not going to do extra work to take advantage of PS5's faster SSD when it comes to things like faster flight or having no elevator loading screens like have been talked about as an advantage of PS5's SSD, so the PS5's SSD advantage will mostly show itself with faster initial load times and fast travel times and maybe a bit less noticeable level of detail pop-in on 3rd party multiplat games. It'll mainly be the 1st/2nd party devs who are able to take full advantage of PS5's faster SSD.

We also have to remember that there are 2 very good reasons why MS went with a slower SSD:

1. Price. A custom SSD like the one Sony used is going to be alot more expensive than the basically off the shelf SSD XSX is using.
2. Expandable storage. MS wanted users to be able to easily expand their storage, so they went with an internal SSD that was roughly the same speed as the SSD cartridges you will be able to buy and plug into the port on the back of the system. Sony on the other hand, while claiming to have expandable storage, won't be able to sell SSD's as fast as their expensive custom internal SSD, so you'll have to expand it's storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, which will handicap the performance of any games that are designed to take full advantage of the fast internal SSD if you install them on your 2nd SSD.

That is patently not true, Cerny said at the time of his presentation no existing SSD was fast enough, but in the next year compatible SSDs will be made available and Sony will certify those to ensure they are up to the required specs. Besides you can always have the internal SSD as the one games run from, and use an external drive as cold storage. So both options are there, and nobody ever mentioned running PS5 games off of slow SSDs.

I don't even want to go to the rest of the post as it sounds a bit like wishful thinking bundled with some damage control on behalf of the XSX, so I'll mark it as opinion only.



shikamaru317 said:
DonFerrari said:

You are somewhat wrong. The improvements they put in Velocity Architeture (that they didn't detail) is sure to have some impact, but at the same time Sony put more into the I/O than simply a faster SSD. So even if the API or software wizardry helps somewhat the hardware optmization would still be above it (even more because the SW can be changed and improved over time), PS5 have more priority levels, more connections, better general compression, better direct access, etc.

Second you inverted the SSD expansion. For Sony you will be able to use third party SSDs (or HDs) for expansion or you can substitute the one in PS5 (or play directly from expansion) if the SSD have enough speed (as said by Mark Cerny you would need over 7Gb/s for similar performance if the SSD misses the priority levels) and form factor fits in the bay. But for MS you would have the same option fro expansion, but if you want to play directly from the SSD new gen games you would need propietary drive.

They did detail what Velocity Architecture and DirectX12 Ultimate features will do for Series X, at least somewhat:

Microsoft's new custom SSD storage is central to Velocity Architecture on Xbox Series X, adopting an in-house NVMe solution, delivering unseen speeds in past generations. That provides 2.4 GB/s raw I/O throughput — or 4.8 GB/s compressed, enabled by a custom decompression block. Compared to the 120MB/s offered by Xbox One X, quick maths reveals up to 40 times increases could be a reality.

The hardware decompression block plays a vital role, allowing games to consume less space via compression on the SSD. That hardware is devoted to tackling run-time decompression, keeping games running smoothly without giving more work to the CPU. It uses Zlib, a general-purpose data-compression library, and a mysterious new system named "BCPack," geared to GPU textures.

We also have DirectStorage, building upon DirectX, and aimed at further reducing CPU workloads. The new Microsoft-built API seeks to optimize the efficiency of Xbox Series X asset streaming, with plans to expand to Windows devices moving forward. That couples with Sampler Feedback Streaming (SFS), streamlining GPU usage and loading only portions of textures demanded by a setting. Both provide software solutions that enhance the efficiency of games on Xbox Series X, taking full advantage of CPU and GPU gains.

Yes, but MS is going to sell SSD cartridges that match the speed of the internal drive soon after the launch of the system, meaning that you will be able to install Series X games on your 2nd SSD with no disadvantages. Sony is not going to be selling SSD's that match the speed of their internal SSD, and we won't see off the shelf SSD's that have speeds over 7 GB/s for at least several more years, at least not ones that are affordable. Which basically means that you are limited to the the 825 GB internal SSD for the first several years of the generation, which will be more like 750 GB accessible by the player thanks to space taken up by the OS. You can expand PS5 storage with a slower off the shelf SSD, but you will basically only be able to install PS4 BC games to it, as PS5 games will be optimized to take full advantage of the faster internal drive, and therefore PS5 games would run like dog crap if you tried to play them from a slower off the shelf SSD. 

Yes I had seem these info on the Velocity Architecture, and is similar to what Sony put (although for me it was HW based as well similar to PS5 not SW). That is why I said it will have a impact on improving the I/O in general, but if it is sw based it probably won't be as efficient as the HW based solution of PS5 (there is a compression/decompression block on the silicion, there is direct lines for the CPU/GPU to get info from SSD without passing through RAM, the Tempest Audio will totally bypass the RAM, etc).

From what we know Sony is not going to sell SSDs, but they could partner with the major SSD providers to have certified SSDs (with 5.5 Gb and 6 layers) soon after launch (no information of it but we never heard neither company talking about the HDDs and SSDs certified devices this gen but they do exist), but yes it is fair to assume that for like 1 year you won't be able to expand the memory while playing directly on that expanded drive (be it changing the original or adding a driver) on PS5. You can always do memory management and also transfer from the external to internal drive even if it is a bother.

I'm curious on what prices MS will practice on the SSD cartridge since accessories are usually sold with a very big margin (sometimes they sell for like 3x the cost of manufacture, all big 3) but yes it is an option and when we discover the average size of games we will see how willing people will be to buy these.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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shikamaru317 said:
padib said:

His post was mostly interesting and correct, except for the point about the SSD swapping (we know it's not true from the road to PS5 video).

Wait, are you telling me that PS5 doesn't have 2nd, empty internal SSD slot? I could have swore I read somewhere that it does. If it only has the one slot, that is even worse than I thought. It would mean that you will have to replace the 825 GB one it comes with with something larger in order to get more storage, which will be even more expensive. On XSX, you should be able to buy a 1 TB SSD cartridge to pop in the expansion slot on the back for about $150 (the price of a 1 TB NVMe SSD currently), doubling your maximum storage from 1 TB to 2 TB. On PS5 you would have to wait until SSD's as fast as the internal one are available off the shelf, and then buy a 2 TB one, which would likely cost $300+, if not $400+. 

Sony didn't show the console yet and didn't mention a bay but I think there isn't one, you either use external drive or replace internal.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

zero129 said:
goopy20 said:

We don't really know to be honest. I mean could that specific UE5 demo have run on Series X as well? I would've thought so, but after reading this quote from a MS exec, I'm starting to have my doubts. All we know for certain is that Sony has shown Spider man with zero loading times and we've seen State of Decay loading in 10 seconds. I also think Sony wouldn't have put so much effort in their SSD tech if it would just mean a bit less pop-in and load a couple of seconds faster. They practically build their whole console around it and are convinced it's the key to the next generation, which a lot of developers seem to be agreeing with.

It wouldn't surprise me if MS releases a mid-gen Series XXL with a faster SSD.

What Otter says is true. What you believe is what you want to believe. Like you only believe that SSD is the key to nextgen for the simple reason that its the only thing that PS5 has thats faster then XBSX so clearly your going to cling to it like its some holy grail. However yes SSD will be great for Nextgen but it wont be only a benefit for just Sony to enjoy or mean the PS5 will have games that wont be possible on PC/XBSX.

And here I thought that PS5`s Audio Tempest was a more powerful solution than on XSX.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
zero129 said:

What Otter says is true. What you believe is what you want to believe. Like you only believe that SSD is the key to nextgen for the simple reason that its the only thing that PS5 has thats faster then XBSX so clearly your going to cling to it like its some holy grail. However yes SSD will be great for Nextgen but it wont be only a benefit for just Sony to enjoy or mean the PS5 will have games that wont be possible on PC/XBSX.

And here I thought that PS5`s Audio Tempest was a more powerful solution than on XSX.

quite sure everything depends on your hifi-set



 "I think people should define the word crap" - Kirby007

Join the Prediction League http://www.vgchartz.com/predictions

Instead of seeking to convince others, we can be open to changing our own minds, and seek out information that contradicts our own steadfast point of view. Maybe it’ll turn out that those who disagree with you actually have a solid grasp of the facts. There’s a slight possibility that, after all, you’re the one who’s wrong.

kirby007 said:
DonFerrari said:

And here I thought that PS5`s Audio Tempest was a more powerful solution than on XSX.

quite sure everything depends on your hifi-set

For launch it seems it will be even more restricted than it, only will really show full power on headphones.

But SSD also will only show anything relevant depending on how devs use.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

padib said:
shikamaru317 said:

Wait, are you telling me that PS5 doesn't have 2nd, empty internal SSD slot? I could have swore I read somewhere that it does. If it only has the one slot, that is even worse than I thought. It would mean that you will have to replace the 825 GB one it comes with with something larger in order to get more storage, which will be even more expensive. On XSX, you should be able to buy a 1 TB SSD cartridge to pop in the expansion slot on the back for about $150 (the price of a 1 TB NVMe SSD currently), doubling your maximum storage from 1 TB to 2 TB. On PS5 you would have to wait until SSD's as fast as the internal one are available off the shelf, and then buy a 2 TB one, which would likely cost $300+, if not $400+. 

At minute 21 of the road to PS5 video, he talks about the expandability of the internal storage. Indeed there seems to be an internal bay (20:55 of the video), but it only supports certain M.2 SSDs.

This article is also interesting:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2020/03/25/the-xbox-series-x-has-a-good-solution-when-its-ssd-gets-full-the-ps5-doesnt/

I'll quote the most relevant part:

"Sony took a different approach. Instead of designing for a custom external SSD, Sony opted to include an SSD-ready internal drive bay. There are two problems with this. The first is there currently are no SSDs to go in the bay. SSDs have to work with the PS5’s advanced technology and those SSDs don’t exist yet. Mark Cerny, the PS5s lead system architect, cautioned that once these SSDs are built, they have to be vetted by Sony to make sure they fit in the bay that’s provided and work with the PS5’s custom tech. That’s going to take time. Cerny expressed hope this problem will be solved before the PS5 launches, but he counseled patience because it might not be."

It's just that your original post was kind of wrong because Sony won't be selling SSDs, and also because it will be possible to purchase an additional M.2 SSD even though it will be limited to certain vendors and will happen after launch (time 23:30 of the road to PS5 video). Otherwise your conclusion matches the article and makes perfect sense so it shouldn't have been bashed, just corrected.

I missed the bay availability, good catch.

Cerny wasn`t explicity so I`ll take my interpretation. Sony will validate SSDs but that will only give us safety on choice, but the system won`t discriminate if Sony analyzed that model or not, if it fits in the bay, have required speed (and possibly layers) it will work even if Sony never validated it. Since the new standard for SSD seem to go over 7Gb/s and Sony doesn`t offer a proprietary format it is quite possible that some vendors will make SSDs available close to launch and claim compatible with PS5 (not sure how much they can say without a partnership thought).



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."