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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

Snoopy said:
eva01beserk said:

Another xbox dev said xbox has no issues? 

Ori developers aren't first party. They are second party at best.

Do they still only make xbox games?



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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I haven't been on here much lately, and have been slow to find out about some of the gaming news, but reading about all of these comparisons really makes me wonder how much of this is "console war propaganda", how much is bias, and how much is the truth.

I wish I had the ability to jump into a parallel universe where the specs were reversed to see if people latched onto some other aspect where their console was favorable.

Do people really favor a faster SSD over faster GPU/CPU? I guess that is somewhat rhetorical, as I can't expect to get honest answers out of most people. But more importantly, how many actually understand the role the SSD plays?

For an SSD, it's very fast, but that's 5.5GB per second. It's still only 1% the speed of the RAM, and far too slow to matter in the context of a single frame. With the PS5, data can be pulled in twice as quickly from the SSD and written onto RAM, but those speeds are mostly relevant for loading times. That means that looking at the raw specs of both consoles, the XSX will have "better gwafix".

It's 2020, are people just now finding out about SSDs?

Source: my dumb asss



Snoopy said:
DonFerrari said:

A dev that won't release games on PS5, doesn't make cutting edge games said it, must be true. He also talked to all devs right?

Yes, because it makes perfect sense for a third party developer to make a game that only works on PS5 and skip out/ gimp the Xbox, Nintendo switch 2 and PC. It's not like this happened before for Blu-ray or Cell processor for PS3 /s

That most games will also be made with XSX in mind sure, that for like 2 years X1 will also be in mind sure. But for the rest of the gen if you think they will be tied to HDD you are sorely wrong, if they ever done that than the SSD was almost a pointless addition from both consoles.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

eva01beserk said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Just logic.

An SSD like the one in the PS5 doesn't come in cheap, and certainly costs a lot more than the one in the XSX for the same space. So Sony needed to sacrifice on something to not let the price go overboard, and the only place where they really could do so was on the GPU die. Having a GPU that's 30% smaller than the one in the XSX can save up a lot of money that's needed for the expensive SSD in the PS5. Hence why the PS5 GPU has much less CU than the one in the XSX (36 vs 52) and tries to compensate for it with high clock speeds (2.23 Ghz vs 1.8 Ghz).

Wrong. What would cost more to develope on the ssd is the development. Once that is done with the cost to produce will be maybe a tiny bit more if any at all. Cost of developement on pc translates to higher price because they need to make their money back on the hardware. But cost of development does not translate to higher cost on consoles as they dont make money on conssoles sold, but software and subcriptions after the console is bought. 

Depends on the kind of chips they use. Unless that has been specified before and I missed it, the next part will explain why I think it will be more expensive.

For such a fast connection, I don't see Sony using TLC or QLC chips, but rather the more expensive MLC or even SLC or 3D XPoint. Microsoft on the other hand, could use TLC for their chips, which are much cheaper to produce than MLC, SLC or XPoint. There's also the (longshot) possibility that they use NOR memory instead of NAND, since that one is much faster than NAND on read and has a longer MTBF, but is much more expensive (2-3 times as much), less densely packed (50-80% extra size for the same capacity) and is somewhat slower at writing tasks.

Finally, the way it's connected and intertwined with the rest of the hardware could need a thicker PCB with more layers to work out correctly, and that can quickly drive up the prices.



RaptorChrist said:
I haven't been on here much lately, and have been slow to find out about some of the gaming news, but reading about all of these comparisons really makes me wonder how much of this is "console war propaganda", how much is bias, and how much is the truth.

I wish I had the ability to jump into a parallel universe where the specs were reversed to see if people latched onto some other aspect where their console was favorable.

Do people really favor a faster SSD over faster GPU/CPU? I guess that is somewhat rhetorical, as I can't expect to get honest answers out of most people. But more importantly, how many actually understand the role the SSD plays?

For an SSD, it's very fast, but that's 5.5GB per second. It's still only 1% the speed of the RAM, and far too slow to matter in the context of a single frame. With the PS5, data can be pulled in twice as quickly from the SSD and written onto RAM, but those speeds are mostly relevant for loading times. That means that looking at the raw specs of both consoles, the XSX will have "better gwafix".

It's 2020, are people just now finding out about SSDs?

Source: my dumb asss

You don't need parallel world. If you were here since gen 7 time you would have seem this flip several times.

It isn't even a factor of favoring faster SSD over faster CPU/GPU (except that most devs have been much more vocal about the SSD than the small difference in the CPU/GPU).

Your source to conclusion matches, but if you want better source listen to all devs, CGI, etc.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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eva01beserk said:
Snoopy said:

Yes, because it makes perfect sense for a third party developer to make a game that only works on PS5 and skip out/ gimp the Xbox, Nintendo switch 2 and PC. It's not like this happened before for Blu-ray or Cell processor for PS3 /s

Yes it does. Expect it pretty frequently in Japanese centric games that sell like dog shit on xbox. Devs wont care to optimize for it as it wont sell anyways. I dont think thouse devs even sent out review copys that are not playstation.

There are a few Japanese centric exclusive games nowadays for consoles and the number is getting smaller and smaller for Playstation. Japan moved to mobile platform for the most part.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
eva01beserk said:

Wrong. What would cost more to develope on the ssd is the development. Once that is done with the cost to produce will be maybe a tiny bit more if any at all. Cost of developement on pc translates to higher price because they need to make their money back on the hardware. But cost of development does not translate to higher cost on consoles as they dont make money on conssoles sold, but software and subcriptions after the console is bought. 

Depends on the kind of chips they use. Unless that has been specified before and I missed it, the next part will explain why I think it will be more expensive.

For such a fast connection, I don't see Sony using TLC or QLC chips, but rather the more expensive MLC or even SLC or 3D XPoint. Microsoft on the other hand, could use TLC for their chips, which are much cheaper to produce than MLC, SLC or XPoint. There's also the (longshot) possibility that they use NOR memory instead of NAND, since that one is much faster than NAND on read and has a longer MTBF, but is much more expensive (2-3 times as much), less densely packed (50-80% extra size for the same capacity) and is somewhat slower at writing tasks.

Finally, the way it's connected and intertwined with the rest of the hardware could need a thicker PCB with more layers to work out correctly, and that can quickly drive up the prices.

Storage benefits more from parallel work than from better chips. More chips in parallel transfer more data than a faster single chip. Sonys solution might as well be a bunch of cheaper chips in parallel or fewer faster more expensive, we dont know. But we know the performance gain from the rchiter=cture is not speed alone as cerny said himself thaat its speed alone does not equate performance, there are many other factors boottlenecking the transfer and sony has removed thouse to. From the xbox side, we have not heard of such bottlenecks being removed, just that thanks to velocity archetecture they can comprese and decomprese textures more eficiently and that is the bigest chunk of data that needs to be streamed. So while ps5 read could maybe be sustained at 5.5gbs until MS clarifies, the xbox canot sustain that 2.4 gbs read. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Snoopy said:
eva01beserk said:

Yes it does. Expect it pretty frequently in Japanese centric games that sell like dog shit on xbox. Devs wont care to optimize for it as it wont sell anyways. I dont think thouse devs even sent out review copys that are not playstation.

There are a few Japanese centric exclusive games nowadays for consoles and the number is getting smaller and smaller for Playstation. Japan moved to mobile platform for the most part.

Yet those few will shine on ps5.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Honestly I would just expect developers to cater to the lowest common denominator. In this case expect both loading screens to adjust for slower SSDs in the XBX and lower graphics/resolutions to adjust for the PS5's lower power.

Though it will be easier to adjust for power than to adjust for loading screens and what not I believe, so maybe games will look a bit better on XBX but I do not think it would be a breaking point for most consumers



Snoopy said:

What multiplatform games will take full advantage of PS5 SSD? Most games aren't open world to begin with and even the ones that are isn't really that fast paced. Hell, the xbox one x can handle forza horizon 4 at 4k just find when cars are going over 200 mph.

why does everything you say involves Forza rofl.. I am not a game dev, but even I know the architecture for driving games are way different, why are you using it as an example when we are obviously discussing about the potential for AAA open world games like GTA, Red Dead, Assassins Creed, Dark souls; etc...

I realize MS has released very few games the last several years so all you can bring up is Forza, but please try to use other points.