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Forums - Gaming Discussion - MS Executive says Devs will need to learn how to work around Slower SSD on XSX

DonFerrari on 09 June 2020
padib said:
DonFerrari said:

I missed the bay availability, good catch.

Cerny wasn`t explicity so I`ll take my interpretation. Sony will validate SSDs but that will only give us safety on choice, but the system won`t discriminate if Sony analyzed that model or not, if it fits in the bay, have required speed (and possibly layers) it will work even if Sony never validated it. Since the new standard for SSD seem to go over 7Gb/s and Sony doesn`t offer a proprietary format it is quite possible that some vendors will make SSDs available close to launch and claim compatible with PS5 (not sure how much they can say without a partnership thought).

Thanks.

The 7GB/s figure you share is interesting (I think you meant GB rather than Gb), I found the NVMe throughput cap at 32GBps right now. https://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/storage-hardware/nvme-speed.html

Yep Cerny speculate that because of the lack of priority levels the system would need to abstract it so to get similar results to the internal 5Gb/s drive you would need a standard (2 priorities instead of 6) that reached 7 and yes Gb/s. The reason they were talking about validation as well is because most of the high speed SSDs available had form factors that wouldn`t fit into the console (like heatsinks as whatnot).



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eva01beserk on 09 June 2020

I would not be surprised if sony allowed much slower ssd's to be used in the expansion bay, then have games automatically swap between the drives in order of last played. While for an external hdd that would be crazzy as it could take hours to swap, betwen ssd's it should be done while your loading the game or installing for the first time or update or what ever, people would not notice and the main drive will always be the ps5's. At least untill a compatible drive comes along. Who knows when that will be. although that would mean a higher price as you would then need to buy an ssd now and basicly throw it out when a compatible ones comes along. But if its seamless, I dont think people will care and wont bother to upgrade. Specially since 825gb is enough for like 10+ games and nobody swaps between that many games.



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setsunatenshi on 09 June 2020
padib said:
shikamaru317 said:

Wait, are you telling me that PS5 doesn't have 2nd, empty internal SSD slot? I could have swore I read somewhere that it does. If it only has the one slot, that is even worse than I thought. It would mean that you will have to replace the 825 GB one it comes with with something larger in order to get more storage, which will be even more expensive. On XSX, you should be able to buy a 1 TB SSD cartridge to pop in the expansion slot on the back for about $150 (the price of a 1 TB NVMe SSD currently), doubling your maximum storage from 1 TB to 2 TB. On PS5 you would have to wait until SSD's as fast as the internal one are available off the shelf, and then buy a 2 TB one, which would likely cost $300+, if not $400+. 

At minute 21 of the road to PS5 video, he talks about the expandability of the internal storage. Indeed there seems to be an internal bay (20:55 of the video), but it only supports certain M.2 SSDs.

This article is also interesting:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2020/03/25/the-xbox-series-x-has-a-good-solution-when-its-ssd-gets-full-the-ps5-doesnt/

I'll quote the most relevant part:

"Sony took a different approach. Instead of designing for a custom external SSD, Sony opted to include an SSD-ready internal drive bay. There are two problems with this. The first is there currently are no SSDs to go in the bay. SSDs have to work with the PS5’s advanced technology and those SSDs don’t exist yet. Mark Cerny, the PS5s lead system architect, cautioned that once these SSDs are built, they have to be vetted by Sony to make sure they fit in the bay that’s provided and work with the PS5’s custom tech. That’s going to take time. Cerny expressed hope this problem will be solved before the PS5 launches, but he counseled patience because it might not be."

It's just that your original post was kind of wrong because Sony won't be selling SSDs, and also because it will be possible to purchase an additional M.2 SSD even though it will be limited to certain vendors and will happen after launch (time 23:30 of the road to PS5 video). Otherwise your conclusion matches the article and makes perfect sense so it shouldn't have been bashed, just corrected.

I didn't bash anyone, and I corrected him on that specific point.

The rest is simply opinion and speculation, which I don't really agree and seems to be quite generous towards Microsoft. If anything their policy of no next gen exclusives and games having to run on last gen leaves me very skeptical towards their hardware design and how games will take advantage of it.

We.

Shall.

See.



setsunatenshi on 09 June 2020
eva01beserk said:
I would not be surprised if sony allowed much slower ssd's to be used in the expansion bay, then have games automatically swap between the drives in order of last played. While for an external hdd that would be crazzy as it could take hours to swap, betwen ssd's it should be done while your loading the game or installing for the first time or update or what ever, people would not notice and the main drive will always be the ps5's. At least untill a compatible drive comes along. Who knows when that will be. although that would mean a higher price as you would then need to buy an ssd now and basicly throw it out when a compatible ones comes along. But if its seamless, I dont think people will care and wont bother to upgrade. Specially since 825gb is enough for like 10+ games and nobody swaps between that many games.

Cerny already mentioned only some (very fast) m.2 drives will be certified compatible. If nothing else because of the size of the SSDs themselves.

Also, the point of a cold storage is to be cheap and big. So you can keep the games you're not actively playing there without having to download them all over again. Then, when playing them, they should be installed back to the fast SSD. So don't think you'll be playing games that make use of the fast I/O speeds when running games on off the shelf slow ass SSDs, that will not happen.

edit: sorry, misread your original post, I think you made the same point as me, running the games on the fast drive. The cold storage should be more than fine to store bulk data though, it would be sequential read and copy to the fast ssd. would take a couple minutes per game and that's it.



TruckOSaurus on 09 June 2020

I don't know or care much about specs talk but mark my words: the PS5 version of 3rd party games WILL have elevators!

Last edited by TruckOSaurus - on 09 June 2020

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setsunatenshi on 09 June 2020
TruckOSaurus said:

I don't know or care much about specs talk but mark my words: the PS5 version of 3rd party games WILL have elevators!

I think the market will dictate if that's the case, I for one won't be buying anymore elevator games next gen :P



TruckOSaurus on 09 June 2020
setsunatenshi said:
TruckOSaurus said:

I don't know or care much about specs talk but mark my words: the PS5 version of 3rd party games WILL have elevators!

I think the market will dictate if that's the case, I for one won't be buying anymore elevator games next gen :P

I bet you will. Yes, elevators are often used to hide load times but they also make sense narratively speaking sometimes. I mean stairs are cool and all but when you need to go up 60 floors, elevators kick ass. 



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yvanjean on 09 June 2020

Just a bunch of stupid click bait articles. Trying to boost Sony's minor SSD advantage over Xbox, ignoring all other important facts. The article and podcast talk about slower SDD vs Faster CPU/GPU, Sony PS5 focus coverage only talks about the slower SSD. Newsflash there will still be bottleneck and limitation on the PS5. The faster SSD isn't a miracle piece of hardware that future proof the console for the next 10 years. In 3-4 years, when Sony releases a PS5 Pro everyone will have to eat crow. 

When it comes to Hardware base boost to games, the XSX faster GPU and PCU will offer more advantages than Sony's faster SSD for cross-platform games.
All this really means is cross-platform games will have better or no load time on Sony consoles while Xbox games will offer better resolution and frame rate.
People are quick to forget that you are still comparing SSD vs SSD, the SSD in XSX is going to offer all of the same advantages that will benefit the PS5 just at a smaller scale.


Last edited by yvanjean - on 09 June 2020

Snoopy on 09 June 2020
Drakrami said:
Snoopy said:

What multiplatform games will take full advantage of PS5 SSD? Most games aren't open world to begin with and even the ones that are isn't really that fast paced. Hell, the xbox one x can handle forza horizon 4 at 4k just find when cars are going over 200 mph.

why does everything you say involves Forza rofl.. I am not a game dev, but even I know the architecture for driving games are way different, why are you using it as an example when we are obviously discussing about the potential for AAA open world games like GTA, Red Dead, Assassins Creed, Dark souls; etc...

I realize MS has released very few games the last several years so all you can bring up is Forza, but please try to use other points. 

Because Forza Horizon 4 is an open world game that is 4k and allows you to travel fast. Forza Horizon and  GTA are the only open world games that requires you to render 4k assets at a fast speed and one x / PC with basic SSD is already doing a good job.



setsunatenshi on 09 June 2020
TruckOSaurus said:
setsunatenshi said:

I think the market will dictate if that's the case, I for one won't be buying anymore elevator games next gen :P

I bet you will. Yes, elevators are often used to hide load times but they also make sense narratively speaking sometimes. I mean stairs are cool and all but when you need to go up 60 floors, elevators kick ass. 

You got me there xD

Towards the end of FF7R I had to make a decision and you know exactly which one I did xD