Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox Series X's cross-gen approach is robbing players of the next-gen thrill

LudicrousSpeed said:
Mr Puggsly said:

So you're suggesting we need developers to focus on making great looking games... even if consumers aren't gonna buy it? Quite honestly, that's stupid. If Killzone:SF got people excited about next gen then more people would have bought it. Instead other cross gen shooters did much better. I think we ultimately learned that logic is flawed.

Consumers rather throw their money at a cross gen game (with improved visuals and performance) than a mediocre visual showcase.

I think its also worth considering the mid gen upgrades took some of the wind out next gen. Because they already delivered on some performance and resolution upgrades we expect for next gen. So when developers advertise something like 4K many just say, "meh."

Look Jack, here's the deal. Ideally we should want good games that push next gen specs, but I'm not gonna request mediocre games with pretty graphics.

Yeah during this whole Xbone cross gen ordeal, people have been forgetting conveniently that launches are typically cross gen games and pretty games that don't offer much of anything new but sure look good. Even goop in one of his many threads about it, started out saying Microsoft would be robbing customers of unique gameplay experiences only made possible by new gen but quickly shifted to pretty graphics once multiple people reminded him that the PS4 launch games he was listing offered nothing new plus PS4 was chock full of tons of cross gen content during its first couple years. Look at this UE5 demo, looked gameplay wise like it could have been any different number of generic action titles from the last gen or two, just with graphics turned up to 12. It's difficult to know which narrative to follow, but something tells me when July hits and the first party XSX games look fantastic, we'll be shifting back to the whole "well they are just upscaled Xbone games!!".

Games like Killzone 6 or Ryse were perfect launch games. The Order would have been a good launch game. Infamous was good for launch. But we're not still seeing those types of games for a reason. Idk why this writer is expecting mid/late gen magic from a third party showcase. And no one has even touched on the COVID effect yet. She wanted CDPR and Activision and other big guns, maybe they could have been there if everyone wasn't working from home.

You made a good point regarding mid gen upgrades, too. This is the first gen where we are launching after the previous gen had upgrades. It's bound to change things.

People keep moving the goalposts. Some argue we need games that take advantage of the new specs, whatever that actually means. Then it devolves into debates about how important next gen graphics are. The market clearly doesn't just care about graphics and tech demos, this is why many are leaning into cross gen.

That UE5 demo literally just looked like games of the last two gens. Granted it looked much better, but it was fundamentally the same shit.

I think the market has actually become savvy about graphical showcases with shallow gameplay. The reality is Killzone:SF and Ryse did okay, but they didn't get successors this gen. Meanwhile The Order was probably a flop. I feel like a better solution for 2020/2021 is just making cross gen content scalable to better utilize next gen specs. Whether that be with better assets, effects, or optimization for the new SSD tech. Also, looking at sales in 2013/2014 its evident the market has decided it wants cross gen content over mediocre next gen exclusives.

I feel like there is boasting about 8K and 120 fps capabilities because they needed something to hype even if they can't deliver it often. Consumers might also be concluding this resolution stuff is pointless. Its diminishing returns, good post processing has also made it difficult to distinguish 1080p from 4K.



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LudicrousSpeed said:
Otter said:
Haven't read it past the first line because its talking about the third party event, where third parties put their games has little to do with Microsoft and will be cross gen on PS5 too.

In regards to 1st party we'll have to wait til July to see whether Microsoft is making impressive use of the hardware or just rendering Xbox One games at 4k/&60fps.

Exactly this. It was advertised as a third party event. The author was expecting big partners like Activision and CDPR, she clearly wasn’t paying attention. 

Mr Puggsly said:
"Where was the pizzazz? The mind-blowing graphics? The huge step in gaming experiences that we've been waiting for?"

I think these morons forget we didn't really have that in 2013 either. Most was cross gen, while the next gen exclusives weren't amazing. Some of the most impressive games this gen came years later or will be here at the end.

Anyhow, another great find by goopy.

Yes another great, optimistic find by the goop. Also you clearly forgot about Knack, Resogun, and Lococycle. Pushing those consoles to the max.

I don't think it matters much if it was a 3rd or 1st party event. I mean if Sony does their official ps5 reveal and only show games like TLOU2, Ghosts of Tsushima with an "enhanced for ps5 logo", would that really create the same buzz as some new games that take a dramatic leap from anything we're seeing on ps4? 



goopy20 said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Exactly this. It was advertised as a third party event. The author was expecting big partners like Activision and CDPR, she clearly wasn’t paying attention. 

Yes another great, optimistic find by the goop. Also you clearly forgot about Knack, Resogun, and Lococycle. Pushing those consoles to the max.

I don't think it matters much if it was a 3rd or 1st party event. I mean if Sony does their official ps5 reveal and only show games like TLOU2, Ghosts of Tsushima with an "enhanced for ps5 logo", would that really create the same buzz as some new games that take a dramatic leap from anything we're seeing on ps4? 

It would create a lot of buzz if TLOU2 and Ghosts of Tsushima actually looked significantly better on PS5.

The interesting thing about UE5 is that engine can make great visuals like we saw in the demo. But that same demo could work on PS4 with scaled back visuals.



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eva01beserk said:
Shiken said:

Because tech demos do not represent what we see in our actual console games and Keelly is just spouting PR.  We see the same line spun every generation along with the whole "X console will out perform PC" nonsense.

Don't believe me?  Look up a video of the tech demos for UE4 or even UE3.  The games never hild up to the tech demos, as tech demos often portray performance not attainable in practice on retail consoles.

Start at the 20min mark if you like. DF would disagree with you. 

Or start it by 21min mark: the demos that came closer to launch were exceeded by the end of the generations.

So don't expect it in the next 2 years.



Conina said:
eva01beserk said:

Start at the 20min mark if you like. DF would disagree with you. 

Or start it by 21min mark: the demos that came closer to launch were exceeded by the end of the generations.

So don't expect it in the next 2 years.

I dont. First of the engine will be available next year, So devs will start to use it then and maybe the following year we might actually see something runing on it. No one said this would be launch games. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

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Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

I don't think it matters much if it was a 3rd or 1st party event. I mean if Sony does their official ps5 reveal and only show games like TLOU2, Ghosts of Tsushima with an "enhanced for ps5 logo", would that really create the same buzz as some new games that take a dramatic leap from anything we're seeing on ps4? 

It would create a lot of buzz if TLOU2 and Ghosts of Tsushima actually looked significantly better on PS5.

The interesting thing about UE5 is that engine can make great visuals like we saw in the demo. But that same demo could work on PS4 with scaled back visuals.

Maybe, but would it though if it looked pretty much identical only running in 4k and 60fps on ps5? Loads of people would buy it, but without the promise of true next games, I don't think it would be enough reason for most people to migrate.

I'm sure they could scale down that tech demo and have it running on ps4, but then it wouldn't look next gen anymore. It would look like a unreal 4 tech demo lol. The thing that made the unreal 5 demo look so impressive is the sheer amount of poly's and assets rendered on screen and the lighting that almost looked like Ray Tracing but at a fraction of the cost.

Last edited by goopy20 - on 17 May 2020

Mr Puggsly said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Yeah during this whole Xbone cross gen ordeal, people have been forgetting conveniently that launches are typically cross gen games and pretty games that don't offer much of anything new but sure look good. Even goop in one of his many threads about it, started out saying Microsoft would be robbing customers of unique gameplay experiences only made possible by new gen but quickly shifted to pretty graphics once multiple people reminded him that the PS4 launch games he was listing offered nothing new plus PS4 was chock full of tons of cross gen content during its first couple years. Look at this UE5 demo, looked gameplay wise like it could have been any different number of generic action titles from the last gen or two, just with graphics turned up to 12. It's difficult to know which narrative to follow, but something tells me when July hits and the first party XSX games look fantastic, we'll be shifting back to the whole "well they are just upscaled Xbone games!!".

Games like Killzone 6 or Ryse were perfect launch games. The Order would have been a good launch game. Infamous was good for launch. But we're not still seeing those types of games for a reason. Idk why this writer is expecting mid/late gen magic from a third party showcase. And no one has even touched on the COVID effect yet. She wanted CDPR and Activision and other big guns, maybe they could have been there if everyone wasn't working from home.

You made a good point regarding mid gen upgrades, too. This is the first gen where we are launching after the previous gen had upgrades. It's bound to change things.

People keep moving the goalposts. Some argue we need games that take advantage of the new specs, whatever that actually means. Then it devolves into debates about how important next gen graphics are. The market clearly doesn't just care about graphics and tech demos, this is why many are leaning into cross gen.

That UE5 demo literally just looked like games of the last two gens. Granted it looked much better, but it was fundamentally the same shit.

I think the market has actually become savvy about graphical showcases with shallow gameplay. The reality is Killzone:SF and Ryse did okay, but they didn't get successors this gen. Meanwhile The Order was probably a flop. I feel like a better solution for 2020/2021 is just making cross gen content scalable to better utilize next gen specs. Whether that be with better assets, effects, or optimization for the new SSD tech. Also, looking at sales in 2013/2014 its evident the market has decided it wants cross gen content over mediocre next gen exclusives.

I feel like there is boasting about 8K and 120 fps capabilities because they needed something to hype even if they can't deliver it often. Consumers might also be concluding this resolution stuff is pointless. Its diminishing returns, good post processing has also made it difficult to distinguish 1080p from 4K.

I agree with you.

 if a dev has a story to tell and is crap, its gona be crap no matter the graphics it can show. The same with gameplay, if they have a vision for it, the graphics wont change the gameplay. Nor will 120fps or raytracing.

But that goes both ways. If a game like the last of us or ghost of tshushima where exclisive to ps5, nothing of it would have changed except how it looks. But most likely the games are gona be good, so they would still be good on ps5. So it being crosgen or exclusive wont matter so in no way does it make it a tech demo where it to be next gen only or quality just cuz is crosgen. So a cross gen game like halo could still be horrible regardless of hardware. The only real thing that is garanty to change is the sales of the game as it will have a bigger audience. 



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Man, I'm starting to feel like I'm in an eternal Deja vu. We have been discussing the very same thing for months now.

But let's try this again:

Goopy, you seem to be struggling to grasp the concept of scalability. You see, if they take the very same UE5 demo that impressed you so much and scale it down enough, it will run on a PS4; which means ANY game from this engine that looks as good as this demo will also be playable on the PS4 with the correct amount of downscaling. Now, will that prevent the PS5 from offering next-gen graphics? I'm inclined to say no.

And another thing: UE5 won't release until next gear, which means is safe to assume that no developer is actually using it just yet. Now, we don't know how many developers from Sony are using UE4, but we know that most developers from MS actually do use it; and we also know that (according to Epic) it will be easy to port to the newer version. So I think you should consider the possibility that you might actually see an UE5 game running on XSX before than on PS5.



goopy20 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

It would create a lot of buzz if TLOU2 and Ghosts of Tsushima actually looked significantly better on PS5.

The interesting thing about UE5 is that engine can make great visuals like we saw in the demo. But that same demo could work on PS4 with scaled back visuals.

Maybe, but would it though if it looked pretty much identical only running in 4k and 60fps on ps5? Loads of people would buy it, but without the promise of true next games, I don't think it would be enough reason for most people to migrate.

I'm sure they could scale down that tech demo and have it running on ps4, but then it wouldn't look next gen anymore. It would look like a unreal 4 tech demo lol. The thing that made the unreal 5 demo look so impressive is the sheer amount of poly's and assets rendered on screen and the lighting that almost looked like Ray Tracing but at a fraction of the cost.

I'm suggesting those games could look better on if developers tweaked the engines to use more advanced/demanding effects, use higher quality assets, etc. At the very least, we kinda expect PS5 to do 4K and/or 60 fps in those 1st party games.

Many will migrate to PS5 quickly simply because they can afford to do it. They will also get better experiences in cross gen games. Others won't migrate until price cuts and notable support pretty much ends on 8th gen.

Right, you sound excited about the UE5 demo, but also admit its not really next gen. I thought it looked nice, but I mostly noticed it looked like games I've been playing for over a decade. It also suggests we can have next gen visuals in cross gen games.



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chakkra said:

Man, I'm starting to feel like I'm in an eternal Deja vu. We have been discussing the very same thing for months now.

But let's try this again:

Goopy, you seem to be struggling to grasp the concept of scalability. You see, if they take the very same UE5 demo that impressed you so much and scale it down enough, it will run on a PS4; which means ANY game from this engine that looks as good as this demo will also be playable on the PS4 with the correct amount of downscaling. Now, will that prevent the PS5 from offering next-gen graphics? I'm inclined to say no.

And another thing: UE5 won't release until next gear, which means is safe to assume that no developer is actually using it just yet. Now, we don't know how many developers from Sony are using UE4, but we know that most developers from MS actually do use it; and we also know that (according to Epic) it will be easy to port to the newer version. So I think you should consider the possibility that you might actually see an UE5 game running on XSX before than on PS5.

The tech demo focused on 2 major new next-gen features. Rendering limitless geometry/ 8k movie quality assets on the fly, and dynamic global illumination. If you turn those two things off, the demo would have looked like a Tom Raider clone running on the Unreal 4 engine. Now do you honestly think the ps4/ Xone can handle Lumen and Nanite without bursting in a ball of flames? 

In any case, it isn't all about just the unreal 5 engine as Sony's studios mostly use their own custom engines. What's important is that Sony's is all about leaping into next gen, leaving ps4 behind and allowing their 1st party games to make full use of the ps5's capabilities. MS on the other hand is basically making Xbox One games that just run better on Series X.

I don't think MS marketing department is run by complete idiots that don't know what they're doing. They showed us exactly what they've been promising for months, which is Xone games that run better X1X and even better on Series X, pretty much like we're seeing on pc. So you tell me how they'll be able to take advantage of the next gen features of Unreal 5 like Lumen and Nanite, if those games also have to run on Xone and are designed with parity in mind?   

Last edited by goopy20 - on 17 May 2020