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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Presidential Election Thread

gergroy said:
JWeinCom said:

Florida should be called day of or Wednesday. They allow ballots to be processed like a week or more in advance, and don't accept ballots received after election day. Unless it's super close like 2000 or there's something weird like in 2000, it should get called quick. Which in turn will let us know if we're in for a long "election night".

Should and will are very different things.  Florida has a pretty extensive history of screwing up or close elections.  I’m just saying, I wouldn’t plan on Florida being an election night call.

You just argued with 99% confidence for something that just doesn't happen anywhere as often as you claim. In the last twenty years, it happened just in 2000 and 2018 with eight statewide elections between these two.

It's fine if that's your opinion on what will happen, just don't present your feelings as hard evidence for something.



 

 

 

 

 

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haxxiy said:
gergroy said:

Should and will are very different things.  Florida has a pretty extensive history of screwing up or close elections.  I’m just saying, I wouldn’t plan on Florida being an election night call.

You just argued with 99% confidence for something that just doesn't happen anywhere as often as you claim. In the last twenty years, it happened just in 2000 and 2018 with eight statewide elections between these two.

It's fine if that's your opinion on what will happen, just don't present your feelings as hard evidence for something.

Come on now, we are talking about Florida here, pretty much the poster child for election incompetence.  Did I use hyperbole in my comment? probably.  The point stands though.  Florida will absolutely be close because it always is.  I’m sure they will manage to mess up their ballot count somehow, especially with desantos running things.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.courthousenews.com/floridas-long-long-history-of-election-woes/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/10/20/us/florida-election-problems.amp.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/20/669379438/floridas-recount-is-over-but-worries-about-a-2020-election-meltdown-persist

edit:  also, the presidential elections in 2008, 2012, and 2016 all weren’t officially  called in Florida for days after the election.  This isn’t a new thing for Florida.

Last edited by gergroy - on 30 October 2020

https://twitter.com/davecatanese?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1322347582660771841%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fjlafp5%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse


I've talked a bit about certain Republican pollsters and how seriously we should take them.

Here, the guy behind Trafalgar claims that Kanye West is costing Trump the election in Minnesota.

According to their poll... Joe Biden will win 60% of the Asian vote, and Kanye West will win 7.6% which is actually the best Kanye does with any race. Biden is set to win 84.6% of the black vote, Trump will win 1.7, and Kanye will get 6.6... In Florida though, Trump wins 24.5% of the black vote (and 20.2% of the democrat vote), so... Black Minnesotans really hate Trump, but in Florida they don't?

While Kanye's performs best among 25-34 year olds, he also has 2.4% of the 45-64 year old voters, and 1.9% of senior citizens will be untrapping Kanye from the closet. 

In Minnesota, according to Trafalgar, Biden will only get 71.3% of the Democratic vote, but on the bright side, he does get over 1/4 of republican voters to make up for it, and wins by 10% among undecided voters.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10UpkHFp-n3flFFbe7yW9bJdBchj33E3p/view

While Biden has a 10% lead among independents in Minnesota, he loses that group by 15% in Florida. As mentioned, in Minnesota, only 1.7 percent of black voters back Trump, compared to 24.5% in Florida. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pObTwLf4tnJIa0PW9KYrQNfqdSE5GwIj/view

In Pennsylvania, Trump gets 10% of the black vote, wins among independents by about 3%, and gets 16.8% of the Democrat vote. 

In Wisconsin Biden beats Trump by 14 points among independents, yet can only secure 68.7% of his own party. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JUtEW3UCKQi33nZ8hYdItUZ2w_aIIUTk/view

These numbers obviously make no fucking sense. 2% of senior citizens in the overwhelmingly white state of Minnesota are not voting for Kanye fucking west. There should be some degree of consistency among particular demographics. Trump is not losing independents by 14% in Wisconsin, and winning them in Pennsylvania. No reason for that massive difference a few states over.

I don't know about the other strangely pro-Trump polls, but at this point I'm pretty comfortable saying that Trafalgar is not a polling firm, it's a disinformation campaign.  After a fluke in 2016 they gained notoriety, and Trump's favor. After Trump loses, he'll be like "well the poll that got it right in 2016 showed I was gonna win, but den I lost. VOTER FRAUD!"

Trafalgar and other sketchy polls are putting out a ton of polls recently that are skewing the national average on RCP, and to a lesser extent 538. Which is why I feel that Biden might actually outperform what the polls are predicting. Because when the numbers aren't getting dragged down by those polls, his lead becomes far stronger.



jason1637 said:
JWeinCom said:

Are There Shy Trump Voters?

Something that keeps me up at night (literally I was working on this when I should have been sleeping) is the shy Trump voter theory. That Trump voters are ashamed to say they are afraid of Trump because liberals are so very scary. So, I did some research to see if that holds up. I analyzed the polling in the 16 closest states from 2016 (except Minnesota where there wasn't sufficient data), comparing what the final polls predicted to the ultimate results, how many undecided voters there were, how far off they were, and how much they understated or overstated each candidate's support. The results look like this...

State

RCP Average

Actual Results

Error

Total Decided (2 way)

Clinton RCP Average

Clinton Actual

Clinton Error

Trump RCP Average

Trump Actual

Trump Error

OH

T- 2.2

T• 8.1

C+ 7.9

90.2

44.0

43.8

- .2

46.2

51.3

5.1

IA

T• 3.0

T• 9.5

C+ 6.5

85.6

41.3

41.7

.4

44.3

51.2

7.9

WI

C- 7.5

T• 0.7

C+- 7.2

87.1

46.8

46.5

-.3

40.3

47.2

6.9

MI

C• 3.6

T• 0.3

C+• 3.9

90.4

47

47

0

43.4

47.3

3.9

NM

C• 5.0

C• 8.3

T+3.3

85.6

45.3

48.3

3

40.3

40

.3

NC

T• 0.8

T• 3.6

C+ 2.8

92.2

45.7

46.2

.5

46.5

49.8

3.3

PA

C• 2.1

T• 0.7

C+2.8

91.5

46.8

47.5

.3

44.7

48.2

3.5

TX

T+11.7

T+9

T+ 2.7

88.3

38.3

43.2

4.9

50

52.2

2.2

ME

C• 5.5

C• 2.9

C+ 2.6

87.5

46.5

47.8

1.3

41.0

44.9

3.9

NV

T• .8

C• 2.4

T+ 2.4

91.6

45.4

47.9

2.5

46.2

45.4

- .8

CO

C• 3.0

C• 4.9

T+1.9

85

44

48.2

4.2

41.0

43.3

2.3

FL

T• 0.4

T• 1.2

C+.8

93.6

46.6

47.4

.8

47

48.6

1.6

GA

T• 4.8

T• 5.1

C+ .3

95.4

44.8

45.4

.6

49.6

50.5

.3

AZ

T• 4.0

T• 3.5

T+.5

90

43

44.6

1.6

47

48.1

1.1

VA

C• 5.3

C• 5.4

C+.1

91.3

48.3

49.8

1.5

43

44.4

1.4

NH

C• 0.3

C• 0.3

0

87.1

43.7

46.8

3.1

43.4

46.5

3.1

Average Error

C+1.5

2.856

89.5

-1.48

-2.875

Here are what I think are the important conclusions we can draw.

1. It's hard to argue there were a ton of shy Trump voters influencing the results. Of the polls in the 16 states, 9 of them either had the race accurate to within a percentage or actually overestimated Trump. In 13 of the 16 states, polling was in the margin of error. Only in 3 states was Trump underestimated by a statistically significant amount.

If you want to argue for shy Trump voters, you'd have to explain why they only seemed to be shy in the rust belt. Why were they shy in Ohio, but not VA, Michigan, but not New Hampshire, or Wisconsin, but not Maine? The theory doesn't quite jive.

2. Even if there were shy Trump supporters there were not lying Trump supporters. There may have been some embarrassed folks who said they were undecided when they were actually determined to vote Trump, but there were not voters who said they were voting for Clinton who wound up voting Trump.

In virtually every state the actual percentage of Clinton voters was higher than the polling average predicted, which is expected as third parties decide. On average Clinton did 1.48% better than the final polls, and Trump did 2.875%.

Meaning that of the undecided voters, about 2/3 ultimately decided on Trump. Is this because they were actually Trump supporters all along and were just so darn bashful? Or is it because of things like the Comey letter coming at the 11th hour. Can't really say.

What does this mean for 2020?

If these patterns hold up in 2020, then Biden wins.

Take Pennsylvania for instance. If the RCP average stays stagnant till election day, Biden has 49.5% of the vote, and Trump has 45.9. This means 95.4% of voters are decided on one of the two major parties, and 4.6% are either undecided or voting for a third party.

If all of those undecided voters vote for Trump, he ties. If .1% of them go to Joe Biden, Jo Jorgenson, or any other candidate, then Biden wins. 

In Michigan, Biden has 50% of the vote. Trump has 43.5%. Again, Trump needs every undecided voter, and 0% third party support if, as in 2016, Biden is not likely to get less than his current RCP average.

TL:DR Version

If there were any "shy Trump" voters in 2016, they reported themselves as undecided. The number of undecided voters this time around is, in most states, is too small to make a difference. Even if 90% of them are actually shy Trump supporters, that won't be enough to win.

This time around, for Trump to win, there would actually have to be voters who are lyin' about Biden. We didn't see anything like that in 2016, so it's unlikely we'll see it now.

There definitely are shy Trump supporters but I don't think there are enough to sway this election.

538 just had a podcast and video about this. Podcast: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/politics-podcast-there-just-isnt-good-evidence-that-shy-trump-voters-exist/

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu-tWi3s-Ow

Like the title says it all already, there's no evidence that there's shy voters in large enough numbers to influence the election.



What's all on the ballots apart from who gets to be president:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywgdZCSaOE



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Jon Ralston believes early voting data in Nevada indicates a huge Biden win if independents are breaking for him, as their voting patterns seem to suggest. Close to double digits, even.



 

 

 

 

 

Texas Trump supporter blockade tries to run Biden's campaign bus off the road, gets Austin event cancelled.



Voter suppression tactics is in full swing right now. https://globalnews.ca/news/7435192/judge-texas-drive-thru-polls/



EpicRandy said:
Voter suppression tactics is in full swing right now. https://globalnews.ca/news/7435192/judge-texas-drive-thru-polls/

Background: This year, Harris County, one of the biggest and bluest in the state, implemented drive-through voting for people who fear catching coronavirus. State law allows curbside voting for those who fear they may suffer injury to their health if they have to vote indoors with other people (say if they're immunocompromised). The GOP Secretary of State signed off on the plan and it was upheld in the 7-0 conservative state Supreme Court. Over 100k ballots have been cast, but now the Texas GOP is bringing state law to federal court (which has no jurisdiction in most state law cases) to throw out all of those votes. By luck of the draw, the judge accepting the case is a total nutcase, who will probably order the votes discarded, ignoring the obvious lack of jurisdiction, the Purcell Principle that bars changes to rules shortly before an election, etc.

FFS the GOP arguments include such gems as (paraphrased) "equal protection is violated because other counties didn't implement drive-through voting" (as if that's Harris County's problem), "9 of the 10 drive-through locations were in heavily-Democrat areas" (ignoring the fact white areas have always had more voting machines and other election infrastructure since forever), and (get this) "state law prohibits mobile voting stations; election workers hand people the ballots to fill out in their cars; cars can move; ergo, all ballots cast at drive-through voting stations originate from mobile voting stations and must be discarded." (https://www.democracydocket.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2020/10/Harris-county-new-suit.pdf)

Make whatever conclusion you wish.



Confirming what I said earlier about Biden's lead being way different than the one Hillary had in 2016, according to FiveThirtyEight, the polls would have to be WAY more off than in 2016 for Trump to win this time around.

Not only is Biden way ahead, he would win EVERY single swing state except Texas, Ohio and North Carolina, and that's if the current polls had the EXACT same polling error as in 2016, which not only have they since been adjusted, but with nearly two thirds of the 2016 votes already cast with Biden/Dems dominating the early vote and Biden polling at or above 50% in every state that Clinton won except Nevada AND all the rust belt states except Ohio, that's not likely to be the case this time around.

The same site also gave Trump a respectable 35% chance to win the election in 2016, which he did by the slimmest of margins after a perfect Democratic shit storm: historically unpopular candidate, Comey case reopening, not campaigning in the rust belt states. This time, FiveThirtyEight gives Trump a 10% chance of winning stealing the election.

Remember what Lindsey Graham said about using his words against him in 2016? Looks like we might (keyword: MIGHT) be able to use Donnie Boy's words against him as well in 4 days:

Last edited by KManX89 - on 01 November 2020