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Vodacixi said:
Nautilus said:

If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine.

You are still missing the point... despite repeting it many times and writting it on capital letters. AI. MAKE IT. COMPETENT. NOT SUPER SMART. NOT OP. NOT IT USING LIMITS, ABILITIES AND MAGIC. JUST MAKE IT DO WHAT IT SHOULD DO. BARRET SHOTTS FLYING THINGS. CLOUD ATTACK GROUND ENEMIES. The healing thing is just something I feel would be logic for them to do, but that could be easily fixed by making it optional in the configuration menu.

I don't think I can explain myself better...

Ok let me make myself more clear, in caps as you have been doing...

PERSONALLY I DON'T WANT THAT.IT RUINS THE GAME FOR ME, SINCE I LIKE TO CONTROL EVERYTHING.

It's clear now?



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

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Nautilus said:
Chrkeller said:

So many points, so little time:

1) Barrett had heal magic via restore materia.  Point being he could have healed without using a single item.  Same goes for not using lighting despite Cloud literally telling him to do so.

2) Customization, it really isn't that hard.  Have a simple matrix where players can custom the AI to their liking.  I'm going to laugh when the final game has said feature and people praise it despite arguing against it.  

3) Design choice doesn't mean critical analysis is forbidden.  BotW clearly had weapon breakage as a design choice...  does that mean folks cannot dislike said design choice?  Of course not.  Just because something was intended doesn't mean players have to like it.  That is just a nonsensical argument that at it's core translates to "you have to love the game I love."  

4) Anybody who didn't have a problem with the game, great.  Why does everybody have to agree?  Why are opinions being constantly challenged, especially when said opinions have been explained many times over?  Why do people care so much?  The game will review well and sell extremely well.  So for those who are happy, be happy.  No reason to constantly tell people they can't have their opinions.  Dark Souls is my second favorite franchise all time and I know a lot of people who hate the series.  I don't tell them difficulty is a design choice and thus they should love it.  And before you dig up the difficulty thread, my stance was it could have different settings, not that it had too.  Just want to cut that off at the knees now.  

Edit

This really has gotten silly.  In addition to this thread there is literally two additional threads defending the battle system from those who didn't love it.  

1)Then he would waste mana?Which dosen't recharge on it's own.Same problem, different situations.

2)Have you maybe imagined the point of the game is to control everyone action, outside of the auto attack?Maybe, just maybe that was done intentionally?Maybe they might implement some light AI customization, but the point of the game is to mimik the original combat system, not do a modern FF XII.

3)They can, but when they complain about it, they are also open to people to complain about those complaining about it.You guys are overly defensive about people not criticizing you, but simply not liking the idea...

4)Because that's what entails a discussion?Because that's the whole point of this forum?I'm not saying that you are a bad person because you didn't like the combat, but I'll not sit here and say that I approve what you said.That's all.

And my thread about difficulty has nothing to do with this, simply because I don't want sour people locking the threads I'm interested in.If you want to talk about it, PM me.

Talk about a persecution complex.We are just having a fun discussion, and just because I don't agree with you, you go agressive.*sigh*

1) Honestly I disagree.  When Cloud is near death, if Barrett auto heals or I manually do so...  end result is the same consumption of mana.  

2) Intentional or not, I don't like it (which is the case with many others).  Intent has nothing to do with personal opinion.  

3) Options are good.  You could avoid using said options so it would have ZERO impact on your experience.  

4) You aren't going to approve of my opinion?!!?  LMFAO.  That is kind of the problem, nobody is seeking your approval.  


As for aggression, I am pretty sure the FFVII defenders are the ones telling us we didn't "understand" the game.  How is that not aggression?  We understood the game just fine.  We just didn't love the design choice.  But please, please, please give me your approval.  I am dying to have it.  

For those who loved the design choice, cool.  I have not, nor will I, attempt to alter you personal preference.  

Edit

In case my point isn't clear, I would kindly ask people to stop telling me I didn't understand the game simply because I'm not loving it.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 03 March 2020

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Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

You are still missing the point... despite repeting it many times and writting it on capital letters. AI. MAKE IT. COMPETENT. NOT SUPER SMART. NOT OP. NOT IT USING LIMITS, ABILITIES AND MAGIC. JUST MAKE IT DO WHAT IT SHOULD DO. BARRET SHOTTS FLYING THINGS. CLOUD ATTACK GROUND ENEMIES. The healing thing is just something I feel would be logic for them to do, but that could be easily fixed by making it optional in the configuration menu.

I don't think I can explain myself better...

Ok let me make myself more clear, in caps as you have been doing...

PERSONALLY I DON'T WANT THAT.IT RUINS THE GAME FOR ME, SINCE I LIKE TO CONTROL EVERYTHING.

It's clear now?

Yeah... see... unless you're saying that you are ok with the party members doing the wrong thing while you are controling another character, sometimes putting you in an innecesarily difficult situation... no, it's not clear.

Let's try it again, let's try to get into that brain of yours. I am in a battle situation. Two flying robots, two one eyed warriors. I take control over Barret to take on the flying robots first. The warriors gang up on me... because Cloud is trying to attack the robots instead of the ground enemies, despite him being unable to hurt them.

Is that ok? Is that justifiable by saying "it's how the game is designed"?

If you still insist in this being fine... I'm sorry, but you are wrong. And you cannot accept it. And I'm not gonna continue this conversation. This is not about game design or personal preferences. This is about the AI DOING THE WRONG THING.

I'm done.



Reading the complaints here shows that being able to micromanage is kind of a rare super power.



Chrkeller said:
Nautilus said:

1)Then he would waste mana?Which dosen't recharge on it's own.Same problem, different situations.

2)Have you maybe imagined the point of the game is to control everyone action, outside of the auto attack?Maybe, just maybe that was done intentionally?Maybe they might implement some light AI customization, but the point of the game is to mimik the original combat system, not do a modern FF XII.

3)They can, but when they complain about it, they are also open to people to complain about those complaining about it.You guys are overly defensive about people not criticizing you, but simply not liking the idea...

4)Because that's what entails a discussion?Because that's the whole point of this forum?I'm not saying that you are a bad person because you didn't like the combat, but I'll not sit here and say that I approve what you said.That's all.

And my thread about difficulty has nothing to do with this, simply because I don't want sour people locking the threads I'm interested in.If you want to talk about it, PM me.

Talk about a persecution complex.We are just having a fun discussion, and just because I don't agree with you, you go agressive.*sigh*

1) Honestly I disagree.  When Cloud is near death, if Barrett auto heals or I manually do so...  end result is the same consumption of mana.  

2) Intentional or not, I don't like it (which is the case with many others).  Intent has nothing to do with personal opinion.  

3) Options are good.  You could avoid using said options so it would have ZERO impact on your experience.  

4) You aren't going to approve of my opinion?!!?  LMFAO.  That is kind of the problem, nobody is seeking your approval.  


As for aggression, I am pretty sure the FFVII defenders are the ones telling us we didn't "understand" the game.  How is that not aggression?  We understood the game just fine.  We just didn't love the design choice.  But please, please, please give me your approval.  I am dying to have it.  

For those who loved the design choice, cool.  I have not, nor will I, attempt to alter you personal preference.  

Edit

In case my point isn't clear, I would kindly ask people to stop telling me I didn't understand the game simply because I'm not loving it.

1) But then it takes away the importance to watch out, since you would have the safety net of someone saving you no matter what(as long as you have the mana).I like this way personally.

2)But I do.And that's my opinion.I was just explaining to you that they did that on purpose, regardless of your opinion on it.

3) Regarding this particular topic, I quote myself from before: "

If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine."

4)LOL. It's not a matter of approving or not.You can have whatever opinion you want.I don't care.Just don't come here in expecting that you can say whatever you want an people will say nothing about it.God, read what I say before you write.

I am not saying that, so why are you bringing this up to me?jeez

And if you can't take a bit of discussion, of people not thinking you are correct, don't engage in the first place jeez.

"You don't approve my opinion?"Where in the hell did you even though of that?

Last edited by Nautilus - on 03 March 2020

My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

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The fact that I have to get my fill of animal crossing and beat persona 5 royal before this is crazy. That delay really messed up my schedule, but I still can’t wait



Vodacixi said:
Nautilus said:

Ok let me make myself more clear, in caps as you have been doing...

PERSONALLY I DON'T WANT THAT.IT RUINS THE GAME FOR ME, SINCE I LIKE TO CONTROL EVERYTHING.

It's clear now?

Yeah... see... unless you're saying that you are ok with the party members doing the wrong thing while you are controling another character, sometimes putting you in an innecesarily difficult situation... no, it's not clear.

Let's try it again, let's try to get into that brain of yours. I am in a battle situation. Two flying robots, two one eyed warriors. I take control over Barret to take on the flying robots first. The warriors gang up on me... because Cloud is trying to attack the robots instead of the ground enemies, despite him being unable to hurt them.

Is that ok? Is that justifiable by saying "it's how the game is designed"?

If you still insist in this being fine... I'm sorry, but you are wrong. And you cannot accept it. And I'm not gonna continue this conversation. This is not about game design or personal preferences. This is about the AI DOING THE WRONG THING.

I'm done.

I.... I thought I was clear with my previous post... I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Yes, that's ok.I mean, it's your job to figure out how to deal with that situation, maybe switch to Barret to deal with the flying units, while you command cloud to use an spell to take them out, or to try to stun the ground units to buy some time.You are in control.If you die, it's most likely your fault.

Then be done with it.If you run out of arguments, then it's ok to not write anything else.I like the game this way.You like it another way it's fine.Ill quote myself again:

"If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine."

Just don't complain when you go into a public forum that it's about discussion and complain that people don't agree with you.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

deskpro2k3 said:
Reading the complaints here shows that being able to micromanage is kind of a rare super power.

Yeah for me the need to micromanage is a big positive and i hope the difficulty will go up by a lot but i'm the type that just likes to have control over everything in these games,they might add more options in the main game for those that like a more faster autoplay.

We shall see.



Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

Yeah... see... unless you're saying that you are ok with the party members doing the wrong thing while you are controling another character, sometimes putting you in an innecesarily difficult situation... no, it's not clear.

Let's try it again, let's try to get into that brain of yours. I am in a battle situation. Two flying robots, two one eyed warriors. I take control over Barret to take on the flying robots first. The warriors gang up on me... because Cloud is trying to attack the robots instead of the ground enemies, despite him being unable to hurt them.

Is that ok? Is that justifiable by saying "it's how the game is designed"?

If you still insist in this being fine... I'm sorry, but you are wrong. And you cannot accept it. And I'm not gonna continue this conversation. This is not about game design or personal preferences. This is about the AI DOING THE WRONG THING.

I'm done.

I.... I thought I was clear with my previous post... I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Yes, that's ok.I mean, it's your job to figure out how to deal with that situation, maybe switch to Barret to deal with the flying units, while you command cloud to use an spell to take them out, or to try to stun the ground units to buy some time.You are in control.If you die, it's most likely your fault.

Then be done with it.If you run out of arguments, then it's ok to not write anything else.I like the game this way.You like it another way it's fine.Ill quote myself again:

"If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine."

Just don't complain when you go into a public forum that it's about discussion and complain that people don't agree with you.

Ok, so you like bad constructed AIs. In a 2020 game. Great. You just like bad things. Finally I can understand it. No need to talk to you anymore about game design, because you have been proven to have absolutely zero knowledge on that matter. Also, you fail to accept when you are wrong and try to turn the blame on whoever shuts you down. I'll take that into account for future threads.

Have a nice day.

Last edited by Vodacixi - on 03 March 2020

Hiku said:
Vodacixi said:

But I'm just complaining about the AI though. I don't want Barret to start spamming limits and magic. I'm happy to have control over that. I just want him to do what he is supposed to do. That's my whole complaint. The same goes for Cloud. If I'm Barret and I'm taking down the flying enemies, Cloud should target the ground enemies. You know, just in case they decide to gang up on me, the hopeless sniper (spoiler: it happens every time during the escape sequence).

I'll try to be a little more specific: I would like the party members to attack the correct enemies, heal themselves or myself if we are at risk... and maybe dodge and block a little? I don't think that is unreasonable. As for healing... Maybe you missed it, but in KH you can actually change the frequency in which Donald (and Goofy if he have potions) heal you. And if you put it all the way up, it will heal you the moment your health gets low. In KHII you can even turn off Cure altogether.

Allies going for enemies that Cloud can't reach I agree with. I noticed an issue with that as well.
As for blocking or dodging, that seems reasonable, especially because that too raises ATB. But I thought they could do that? I'll try to confirm it next time I play.

But if they used healing by themselves, that would no longer give you "full control" over commands and resources.
And that's what they're trying to do here.

But let's assume Barret could heal himself. What type of problems can emerge from that?
He might use an ATB gauge or MP at a moment when you really want him to do something else. One Thunder bolt could be all that's needed to stun the boss. Unless Barret wastes a few seconds to heal himself, and the boss' stagger gauge fills up too much for a single thunder to be able to knock it down.
But if you have full control, you can use that thunder, stagger the boss, and then build up the ATB while the boss is down and then heal your Barret.

Or maybe Barret has 2 ATB gauges, and uses Cure first, but then has too little MP to cast Thunder.

That's just two examples off the top of my head, but there's often no obvious way for an A.I. to know when to heal itself that's consistent.
And that's fine in some games, but if they want to go for full control, it has to be as consistent as possible to avoid any mishaps.

They can block and dodge. They just... fail to recognize the situations where a dodge and a block are necessary xD

I get what SE is trying to do... I just think that as long as the party has some degree of independence, but uses that independence wrong, the whole "being in total control" thing is not so perfect.

I can see the problem you are mentioning with the ATB Gauge and healing. And to be honest, I'm not sure how I would circumvent that issue myself. Maybe an "emergency healing" ability that uses no ATB and triggers once per battle and only if its to heal Cloud? I don't know. I just think it would be nice to implement healing for party members in some way.