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Forums - Sony Discussion - Final fantasy 7 remake demo is out now!

Vodacixi on 03 March 2020
Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

And wouldn't be better if the AI party members actually did something other than just filling an ATB bar with mindless attacks, often towards enemies that they can't reach? I don't know, I think this system could have been implemented a lot better by just having a better AI for party members. If their only purpose is to fill the ATB bar and they are only truly useful once you take control over them... I think a different approach for the battle system would have suited the game better, one were you take a more direct control over everyone. Maybe classic mode should have been the main mode.

Or you know... maybe they just should have done a decent AI for party members. Is not that complicated. Kingdom Hearts did it back in 2002. We are in 2020. If Barret is supposed to shoot at the flying enemies that Cloud cannot reach, the AI should just do that. If Cloud is dying and I'm controlling Barret, I think Cloud should be smart enough to heal itself from time to time. If they don't do any of this, it feels like I'm surrounded by mindless idiots.

Since people already explained why, my answer is just no.

Then you would go to the FF XV problem.While not nerly to that extend, but the game would play itself to some extent, and would take away the fun of the game.Once you fill the ATB, you don't have to take control over them.Just "freeze" time and issue a command to them(magic, ability, the ones that actually deal damage) and get back to the action.

This is the best decision the devs made.

Emmm... no. Barret shooting at what he should shoot and using a potion from time to time is not "the game playing itself". It's more of "Here I am, fighting with my allies... and they can be competent by themselves. And if I want them to be even more competent or do something especial, I take control over them".

Honestly, I fail to see what would be the problem in the party members being, not OP, but simply competent. Why should I be beaten into a bloody paste by those one eyed soldiers as Barret because I'm trying to take down the flying robots while Cloud is trying to do the same (without any hope of succeeding) and ignoring the ground enemies HE IS DESIGNED TO DESTROY?



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CladInShadows on 03 March 2020
John2290 said:
Man, midgar is short. I check a lets play to see what I've never played and I'm like an hour away from finishing it. I hope they come out and say this is bigger than Midgar because 10-15 hours just isn't enough and it's most likely less now without the random battles. Based on the demo boss I suspect they are bloating it with enemy health bars. If this really is a part one of 2 or 3 then they should be selling it for full price. Not even Activision charge full price for their remakes. That's 140-210 euro for the full game. I now want this to fail because it it succeeds then we'll see some really shit pricing and incompetent nonsense like this from other publishers.

How long Midgar takes in the original will have almost nothing to do with how long Midgar takes in the remake.



Vodacixi on 03 March 2020
Hiku said:
Vodacixi said:

And wouldn't be better if the AI party members actually did something other than just filling an ATB bar with mindless attacks, often towards enemies that they can't reach? I don't know, I think this system could have been implemented a lot better by just having a better AI for party members. If their only purpose is to fill the ATB bar and they are only truly useful once you take control over them... I think a different approach for the battle system would have suited the game better, one were you take a more direct control over everyone. Maybe classic mode should have been the main mode.

Or you know... maybe they just should have done a decent AI for party members. Is not that complicated. Kingdom Hearts did it back in 2002. We are in 2020. If Barret is supposed to shoot at the flying enemies that Cloud cannot reach, the AI should just do that. If Cloud is dying and I'm controlling Barret, I think Cloud should be smart enough to heal itself from time to time. If they don't do any of this, it feels like I'm surrounded by mindless idiots.

The idea is that you are in control all the important actions of the characters, similar to the original game. That's a design choice.
(Barret not targeting the flying enemies with regular attacks is an A.I. issue though.)

If Cloud was dying in the original FF7, my other characters didn't heal him. That was my decision, so I some times I would rather go for an attack instead of healing. A risky decisions I could never trust an AI to make for me.
Like Donald from KH.



I don't know if it would necessarily be better or worse if the A.I. did more than just fill the ATB. It would be very different though.
This A.I. will never make itself busy with any commands. Meaning when you make use of an ability or item, that character won't be in the middle of doing a Limit Break or casting a spell, forcing you to wait until they finish.

It's not that we give our allies commands every now and then when we feel the need to. We should always give them commands.
Just like in the original game.

And that mentality will probably take a while to get used to, because it's easy to get thrown off when you have an A.I involved.
But imagine if it did nothing at all in this combat system? That would be really weird. So that's probably one of the reasons they decided that regular attacks will fill up the ATB.

But I'm just complaining about the AI though. I don't want Barret to start spamming limits and magic. I'm happy to have control over that. I just want him to do what he is supposed to do. That's my whole complaint. The same goes for Cloud. If I'm Barret and I'm taking down the flying enemies, Cloud should target the ground enemies. You know, just in case they decide to gang up on me, the hopeless sniper (spoiler: it happens every time during the escape sequence).

I'll try to be a little more specific: I would like the party members to attack the correct enemies, heal themselves or myself if we are at risk... and maybe dodge and block a little? I don't think that is unreasonable. As for healing... Maybe you missed it, but in KH you can actually change the frequency in which Donald (and Goofy if he have potions) heal you. And if you put it all the way up, it will heal you the moment your health gets low. In KHII you can even turn off Cure altogether.



Nautilus on 03 March 2020
Vodacixi said:
Nautilus said:

Since people already explained why, my answer is just no.

Then you would go to the FF XV problem.While not nerly to that extend, but the game would play itself to some extent, and would take away the fun of the game.Once you fill the ATB, you don't have to take control over them.Just "freeze" time and issue a command to them(magic, ability, the ones that actually deal damage) and get back to the action.

This is the best decision the devs made.

Emmm... no. Barret shooting at what he should shoot and using a potion from time to time is not "the game playing itself". It's more of "Here I am, fighting with my allies... and they can be competent by themselves. And if I want them to be even more competent or do something especial, I take control over them".

Honestly, I fail to see what would be the problem in the party members being, not OP, but simply competent. Why should I be beaten into a bloody paste by those one eyed soldiers as Barret because I'm trying to take down the flying robots while Cloud is trying to do the same (without any hope of succeeding) and ignoring the ground enemies HE IS DESIGNED TO DESTROY?

And potions are limited.I wouldnt want to run out of potions, just because Barret, Tifa and ASerith all used one just because their hp is 30% down.

Plus, the ability to manage the party is part of the challenge and the fun.A design choice, as many have said.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Vodacixi on 03 March 2020
Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

Emmm... no. Barret shooting at what he should shoot and using a potion from time to time is not "the game playing itself". It's more of "Here I am, fighting with my allies... and they can be competent by themselves. And if I want them to be even more competent or do something especial, I take control over them".

Honestly, I fail to see what would be the problem in the party members being, not OP, but simply competent. Why should I be beaten into a bloody paste by those one eyed soldiers as Barret because I'm trying to take down the flying robots while Cloud is trying to do the same (without any hope of succeeding) and ignoring the ground enemies HE IS DESIGNED TO DESTROY?

And potions are limited.I wouldnt want to run out of potions, just because Barret, Tifa and ASerith all used one just because their hp is 30% down.

Plus, the ability to manage the party is part of the challenge and the fun.A design choice, as many have said.

In games like KH, you can toggle the frecuency in which the party members do certain actions. Like healing. Also, you can just not equip your party members with potions if you are afraid of them wasting them. Things that FF VII Remake could implement without harming the overall experience AT ALL. If anything, it would feel more coherent with what the game is showing us.

I repeat: I don't want the party members to be completely independent. I LIKE THAT I CAN CONTROL THEM AND GIVE THEM COMMANDS. I JUST WANT THEM TO BE COMPETENT. NOT OP. NOT TOTALLY INDEPENDENT. JUST. COMPETENT.



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Chrkeller on 03 March 2020
Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

Emmm... no. Barret shooting at what he should shoot and using a potion from time to time is not "the game playing itself". It's more of "Here I am, fighting with my allies... and they can be competent by themselves. And if I want them to be even more competent or do something especial, I take control over them".

Honestly, I fail to see what would be the problem in the party members being, not OP, but simply competent. Why should I be beaten into a bloody paste by those one eyed soldiers as Barret because I'm trying to take down the flying robots while Cloud is trying to do the same (without any hope of succeeding) and ignoring the ground enemies HE IS DESIGNED TO DESTROY?

And potions are limited.I wouldnt want to run out of potions, just because Barret, Tifa and ASerith all used one just because their hp is 30% down.

Plus, the ability to manage the party is part of the challenge and the fun.A design choice, as many have said.

So many points, so little time:

1) Barrett had heal magic via restore materia.  Point being he could have healed without using a single item.  Same goes for not using lighting despite Cloud literally telling him to do so.

2) Customization, it really isn't that hard.  Have a simple matrix where players can custom the AI to their liking.  I'm going to laugh when the final game has said feature and people praise it despite arguing against it.  

3) Design choice doesn't mean critical analysis is forbidden.  BotW clearly had weapon breakage as a design choice...  does that mean folks cannot dislike said design choice?  Of course not.  Just because something was intended doesn't mean players have to like it.  That is just a nonsensical argument that at it's core translates to "you have to love the game I love."  

4) Anybody who didn't have a problem with the game, great.  Why does everybody have to agree?  Why are opinions being constantly challenged, especially when said opinions have been explained many times over?  Why do people care so much?  The game will review well and sell extremely well.  So for those who are happy, be happy.  No reason to constantly tell people they can't have their opinions.  Dark Souls is my second favorite franchise all time and I know a lot of people who hate the series.  I don't tell them difficulty is a design choice and thus they should love it.  And before you dig up the difficulty thread, my stance was it could have different settings, not that it had too.  Just want to cut that off at the knees now.  

Edit

This really has gotten silly.  In addition to this thread there is literally two additional threads defending the battle system from those who didn't love it.  

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 03 March 2020

Nautilus on 03 March 2020
Vodacixi said:
Nautilus said:

And potions are limited.I wouldnt want to run out of potions, just because Barret, Tifa and ASerith all used one just because their hp is 30% down.

Plus, the ability to manage the party is part of the challenge and the fun.A design choice, as many have said.

In games like KH, you can toggle the frecuency in which the party members do certain actions. Like healing. Also, you can just not equip your party members with potions if you are afraid of them wasting them. Things that FF VII Remake could implement without harming the overall experience AT ALL. If anything, it would feel more coherent with what the game is showing us.

I repeat: I don't want the party members to be completely independent. I LIKE THAT I CAN CONTROL THEM AND GIVE THEM COMMANDS. I JUST WANT THEM TO BE COMPETENT. NOT OP. NOT TOTALLY INDEPENDENT. JUST. COMPETENT.

If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

rapsuperstar31 on 03 March 2020

i enjoyed the demo for the most part, but as others stated I don't know about the battle system. For small battles it was fine, but I felt like I had to constantly switch between Cloud and Barret in the boss battle which annoyed me more than I enjoyed it. They should take a note from the Tales series and allow characters to heal when another character drops below a certain threshold. It will be an unpopular opinion but I hope Square listens to feedback on the game and pushes it back however months it takes to perfect the game. We have waited this long I can wait longer.



Nautilus on 03 March 2020
Chrkeller said:
Nautilus said:

And potions are limited.I wouldnt want to run out of potions, just because Barret, Tifa and ASerith all used one just because their hp is 30% down.

Plus, the ability to manage the party is part of the challenge and the fun.A design choice, as many have said.

So many points, so little time:

1) Barrett had heal magic via restore materia.  Point being he could have healed without using a single item.  Same goes for not using lighting despite Cloud literally telling him to do so.

2) Customization, it really isn't that hard.  Have a simple matrix where players can custom the AI to their liking.  I'm going to laugh when the final game has said feature and people praise it despite arguing against it.  

3) Design choice doesn't mean critical analysis is forbidden.  BotW clearly had weapon breakage as a design choice...  does that mean folks cannot dislike said design choice?  Of course not.  Just because something was intended doesn't mean players have to like it.  That is just a nonsensical argument that at it's core translates to "you have to love the game I love."  

4) Anybody who didn't have a problem with the game, great.  Why does everybody have to agree?  Why are opinions being constantly challenged, especially when said opinions have been explained many times over?  Why do people care so much?  The game will review well and sell extremely well.  So for those who are happy, be happy.  No reason to constantly tell people they can't have their opinions.  Dark Souls is my second favorite franchise all time and I know a lot of people who hate the series.  I don't tell them difficulty is a design choice and thus they should love it.  And before you dig up the difficulty thread, my stance was it could have different settings, not that it had too.  Just want to cut that off at the knees now.  

Edit

This really has gotten silly.  In addition to this thread there is literally two additional threads defending the battle system from those who didn't love it.  

1)Then he would waste mana?Which dosen't recharge on it's own.Same problem, different situations.

2)Have you maybe imagined the point of the game is to control everyone action, outside of the auto attack?Maybe, just maybe that was done intentionally?Maybe they might implement some light AI customization, but the point of the game is to mimik the original combat system, not do a modern FF XII.

3)They can, but when they complain about it, they are also open to people to complain about those complaining about it.You guys are overly defensive about people not criticizing you, but simply not liking the idea...

4)Because that's what entails a discussion?Because that's the whole point of this forum?I'm not saying that you are a bad person because you didn't like the combat, but I'll not sit here and say that I approve what you said.That's all.

And my thread about difficulty has nothing to do with this, simply because I don't want sour people locking the threads I'm interested in.If you want to talk about it, PM me.

Talk about a persecution complex.We are just having a fun discussion, and just because I don't agree with you, you go agressive.*sigh*



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Vodacixi on 03 March 2020
Nautilus said:
Vodacixi said:

In games like KH, you can toggle the frecuency in which the party members do certain actions. Like healing. Also, you can just not equip your party members with potions if you are afraid of them wasting them. Things that FF VII Remake could implement without harming the overall experience AT ALL. If anything, it would feel more coherent with what the game is showing us.

I repeat: I don't want the party members to be completely independent. I LIKE THAT I CAN CONTROL THEM AND GIVE THEM COMMANDS. I JUST WANT THEM TO BE COMPETENT. NOT OP. NOT TOTALLY INDEPENDENT. JUST. COMPETENT.

If Square puts an option to make them act on their own, but that I can disable it(and the standard is disabled), without ruining the game balance, I'm fine with it.

But I mean, If Nomura and his team designed the game like this, to be akin to the original game where you control everyone.That's just game design, whether you like it or not.It's the same as me not liking Dead Cells much because it's a roguelike, versus liking a game like Hollow Knight.Both are part of the same genre, but due to how they approach things I like them in different ways.

So just to reiterate: If Square manages to put that, as an option that you can disable, without ruining the game balance, then I'm ok with it.But PERSONALLY, I don't want them to act on their own.I want to control everything.Makes the game simply more enjoyable.I mean, the AI is already competent, but fine.

You are still missing the point... despite repeting it many times and writting it on capital letters. AI. MAKE IT. COMPETENT. NOT SUPER SMART. NOT OP. NOT IT USING LIMITS, ABILITIES AND MAGIC. JUST MAKE IT DO WHAT IT SHOULD DO. BARRET SHOTTS FLYING THINGS. CLOUD ATTACK GROUND ENEMIES. The healing thing is just something I feel would be logic for them to do, but that could be easily fixed by making it optional in the configuration menu.

I don't think I can explain myself better...