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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

Mnementh on 14 January 2021
vivster said:
Mnementh said:

As I said, there were multiple posts about the successful fight against COVID in Vietnam and haxxiy reacted by dragging other political aspects into the situation. Yes, you might see HoangNhatAnh reaction as deflection, but actually it was a short and snappy response to a post that wanted to deflect discussion about the methods of vietnam to completely unrelated issues.

For trust into the numbers... do you trust our numbers in germany? After the rules changed and you can't get a test even with direct contact with a proven infected person as long as you show no symptoms. Which is even more hilarious considering you still get the recommendation to quarantine. And to make it useless: the quarantine doesn't expand to your contacts, including other members of your household. The numbers from germany are highly untrustworthy.

But you always have other indications. An infection that isn't under control will spread further and it results in full hospitals and increasing death numbers. That thing you can't keep under covers for a long period of time. These things indicate indeed, that Vietnam is quite successful in fighting the virus. In summer western media also recognized this, I don't find any recent reports though:

I also think it is quite risky to ignore everything a dictatorship does and not to recognize their successes. Because we can learn from them without turning ourself into dictatorships. But to learn from them, we first have to recognize what we can learn. By outright denying every success of such countries because dictatorship is actually not better than denying everything germany does because of WWII. And in the current natural disaster which is the pandemic, it is clear that germany critically fails to properly respond, while Vietnam is quite successful. We should recognize this and try to learn everythign we can learn, not switch to unrelated points. It is justified to discuss the vietnamese authorative regime, but probably not in regards to fighting the virus. There may be some measures that are not applicable in a democracy, but that doesn't mean everything they do is impossible for us to replicate (or even modify to fit for us).

We can learn from other countries without being too praising. International recognition is one of the worst things you can give a dictatorship, even if it's earned.

Germany has had limited success because we're too democratic. I don't have to trust German numbers because they're way too bad anyway. No country will report higher numbers than it actually has so my distrust starts only when some numbers look too good. I think it's useful to talk about politics and authoritarian regimes, because those regimes have a wider toolset to combat spread, than Germany with its limp dicked politicians. Though I don't think the things we'll learn will be all too applicable. I mean I already know where Germany has fucked up and Vietnam didn't.

I think one area Vietnam did pretty well is communication, with the song for instance. That is something a democracy can do as well.

But overall there is more to learn. Look at this article (in german), there are some things discussed that are lessons taken from countries that are more successful than germany.



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SvennoJ on 14 January 2021
JRPGfan said:
Phoenix20 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/uk-coronavirus-deaths-pass-100000
UK death toll has reached 100,000. UK records 1500 deaths in the last 24 hours.

John Hopkins only shows 85,000.   (worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

But then again, they "only" count those that ALREADY had tested positive, within 28days of the death.
And only count them, if the direct cause was corona and not indirectly ect ect.
(they refuse to count post death, if they wheren't tested before, and refuse to test corpses (even if doctors are like 99.9% sure its covid))

They applied these rules, and "dismissed" alot of deaths, at some point (end of first wave?), to reduce how badly the UK was doing (looked to be doing).

But thats a mile stone to hit.
100k is alot of people (~0,2% of population? of UK).

USA is soon gonna hit 400,000+ offical dead too (its 6k away from it now, and every day theres another ~4100 dead).
(real number probably closer to 600,000+)

At some point, those "its just a flu, bro" people, will have to accept this thing is differnt from a flu.

They'll come with something else, like "Heart disease kills 18 million pr year, bro. why all the fuss over 100K"

Or much simpler, every death is counted as covid death, fake news!



haxxiy on 14 January 2021

It's not deflection when the point is that authoritarian regimes can outright LIE about what's happening in their countries. And you'll see their apologists everywhere in the internet with propaganda talking points. And they are inherently more corrupt and socially unstable than democratic countries. That isn't up to discussion.

Look... I've been to both Viet Nam and Germany. From one of them I remember a lot of grafitti, scam attempts and chaotic motorcycle transit. The other wouldn't have people crossing the streets if the traffic lights were red for God's sake. Anedoctal argument? Maybe. But that's still better than gobbling up everything you read because you HAVE to find a culprit for your Covid-19 anxiety somewhere.



 

 

 

 

 

sethnintendo on 14 January 2021

Authoritarian regimes more corrupt than democratic regimes? No shit.



HoangNhatAnh on 14 January 2021
haxxiy said:

It's not deflection when the point is that authoritarian regimes can outright LIE about what's happening in their countries. And you'll see their apologists everywhere in the internet with propaganda talking points. And they are inherently more corrupt and socially unstable than democratic countries. That isn't up to discussion.

Look... I've been to both Viet Nam and Germany. From one of them I remember a lot of grafitti, scam attempts and chaotic motorcycle transit. The other wouldn't have people crossing the streets if the traffic lights were red for God's sake. Anedoctal argument? Maybe. But that's still better than gobbling up everything you read because you HAVE to find a culprit for your Covid-19 anxiety somewhere.

We fought many bigger and stronger countries during war era. We also faced many viruses and diseases such as SARS, H1N1, H5N1, H3N1,... in the past. We still won in the end. What make you think it would be different for us this time?

Health care system is just one factor, your attitude and how you treat the problem are what will decide the war. We acted asap when we realized this thing would be very dangerous since January 2020. All the things many Western countries are doing now, we already did them in March - April 2020. Basically the difference of each country's thinking and attitude to this virus will bring different results.

Last edited by HoangNhatAnh - on 14 January 2021

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SvennoJ on 14 January 2021
HoangNhatAnh said:

We fought many bigger and stronger countries during war era. We also faced many viruses and diseases such as SARS, H1N1, H5N1, H3N1,... in the past. We still won in the end. What make you think it would be different for us this time?

Health care system is just one factor, your attitude and how you treat the problem are what will decide the war. We acted asap when we realized this thing would be very dangerous since January 2020. All the things many Western countries are doing now, we already did them in March - April 2020. Basically the difference of each country's thinking and attitude to this virus will bring different results.

True, Western arrogance plays a big factor in the botch job we're doing. The 'it won't happen to me' attitude is strong on all levels, not helped by 2019 reports that put US and UK as the most prepared and able to deal with a pandemic.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-pandemic-preparedness-ranked/

Vietnam is ranked 50th, doing better than most of the 49 above.



chakkra on 14 January 2021
SvennoJ said:
HoangNhatAnh said:

We fought many bigger and stronger countries during war era. We also faced many viruses and diseases such as SARS, H1N1, H5N1, H3N1,... in the past. We still won in the end. What make you think it would be different for us this time?

Health care system is just one factor, your attitude and how you treat the problem are what will decide the war. We acted asap when we realized this thing would be very dangerous since January 2020. All the things many Western countries are doing now, we already did them in March - April 2020. Basically the difference of each country's thinking and attitude to this virus will bring different results.

True, Western arrogance plays a big factor in the botch job we're doing. The 'it won't happen to me' attitude is strong on all levels, not helped by 2019 reports that put US and UK as the most prepared and able to deal with a pandemic.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/global-pandemic-preparedness-ranked/

Vietnam is ranked 50th, doing better than most of the 49 above.

The people who made that study were really confident in the infrastructure of the healthcare system in those countries, what they underestimated was the level of stupidity of the common people in the streets.

Full disclosure: That has happened in my country as well.



JRPGfan on 14 January 2021
SvennoJ said:
JRPGfan said:

John Hopkins only shows 85,000.   (worldometers.info/coronavirus/)

But then again, they "only" count those that ALREADY had tested positive, within 28days of the death.
And only count them, if the direct cause was corona and not indirectly ect ect.
(they refuse to count post death, if they wheren't tested before, and refuse to test corpses (even if doctors are like 99.9% sure its covid))

They applied these rules, and "dismissed" alot of deaths, at some point (end of first wave?), to reduce how badly the UK was doing (looked to be doing).

But thats a mile stone to hit.
100k is alot of people (~0,2% of population? of UK).

USA is soon gonna hit 400,000+ offical dead too (its 6k away from it now, and every day theres another ~4100 dead).
(real number probably closer to 600,000+)

At some point, those "its just a flu, bro" people, will have to accept this thing is differnt from a flu.

They'll come with something else, like "Heart disease kills 18 million pr year, bro. why all the fuss over 100K"

Or much simpler, every death is counted as covid death, fake news!

I actually googled it.
Apparently around 650k in the USA die due to heart related issues (heart diseases).
Thats like 1 outta 4 deaths in the USA, are due to it.

Corona is giveing heart diseases a run for its money, in terms of deaths pr year.



JRPGfan on 14 January 2021
haxxiy said:

It's not deflection when the point is that authoritarian regimes can outright LIE about what's happening in their countries. And you'll see their apologists everywhere in the internet with propaganda talking points. And they are inherently more corrupt and socially unstable than democratic countries. That isn't up to discussion.

Look... I've been to both Viet Nam and Germany. From one of them I remember a lot of grafitti, scam attempts and chaotic motorcycle transit. The other wouldn't have people crossing the streets if the traffic lights were red for God's sake. Anedoctal argument? Maybe. But that's still better than gobbling up everything you read because you HAVE to find a culprit for your Covid-19 anxiety somewhere.

My dad used to jokeingly say, that back in the day, in russian soviet union, because of fear from the secret police, you could drop a wallet in the street, and no one would pick it up. If it was, it was always returned to nearby police station (without anything missing).

Fear.... people were sure it was a "test", tempting people with a lure.
Be brave go pick it up, see if you arnt kidnapped the next day.

Sadly I agree with you.
Berlin has lots of graffiti.
I wouldnt say scam attempts, because I believe germans in general are pretty honest people.
Traffic in germany is "hectic" to say the least though, not very turist friendly.



SvennoJ on 14 January 2021
JRPGfan said:
SvennoJ said:

They'll come with something else, like "Heart disease kills 18 million pr year, bro. why all the fuss over 100K"

Or much simpler, every death is counted as covid death, fake news!

I actually googled it.
Apparently around 650k in the USA die due to heart related issues (heart diseases).
Thats like 1 outta 4 deaths in the USA, are due to it.

Corona is giveing heart diseases a run for its money, in terms of deaths pr year.

We all eventually die of something and old age isn't used as a cause of death. But even with that, Corona is still given the chance to compete :/

As for Vietnam, I don't know how it's going there now. However one of my best friends growing up came from Vietnam. Political asylum, his parents weren't safe there anymore. So all I know of Vietnam is through them, very hard working people, very friendly and welcoming, house always full. I spend many evenings there playing Risk and 1830 through the night with all the uncles and aunts. They made the most amazing Vietnamese lumpias and opened a Vietnamese take out food store. They also gave me work, preparing the spring rolls, which paid for my tv and vcr.

Of course there were some cultural clashes as well, it seems Vietnam relies much more on the community to teach kids values while parents are much more hands off. No clue if that is true but that's how it was in that family. And eventually my friend ended up in an arranged marriage with house paid for by the parents and all.

So, naturally they painted Vietnam in a bit of a negative light, having to flee from there fearing for their lives and all. The rest I know of Vietnam is from the Amazing race lol. I'll be flying over Vietnam in FS2020 in a while and check out more of the country, I'm currently over India. Still a ways to go.



Back on topic. Plans are to ramp up distribution of vaccine doses to 1 million per week, it’s anticipated that 20 million doses will be delivered to Canada between April and June. As much as I'm excited by the positive news, it's also clearly another free for all situation. There is no global plan for distribution, wealthy countries scrambling to secure as many doses possible first. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth I guess, be glad to live in a wealthy country that has the luxury to eff up. If they can reach 1 million per week, that's still 76 weeks to get everyone 2 doses. 53 weeks to reach herd immunity (maybe).