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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Eurogamer: PS5 and Xbox Series X Spec Leak.

ArchangelMadzz said:
exclusive_console said:

If Xbox is 12tf RDNA that is equivalent to 15+tf on GCN. TBH I will be surprised if this is true but these are amazing specs even for 600$ console. Moreover I think they are going to release all their exclusives on gamepass ? Not sure how Microsoft is going to make money but it is great value for consumer. It even looks like mini ATX case.

So a powerful machine that will become outdated with no upgradability? Can't add any extra ram, can't overclock, can't sell your GPU to buy a newer GPU for a low price?

Seems like it doesn't have any the benefits of a PC that PC gamers choose PC for. 

Ok, some of you don't understand what a hardcore gamer is. A hardcore gamer will buy a console/PC to play the game he likes. Period. Why on earth should we care about anything else? So, please, could you stop with the "PC mustard race". If a console has games I want to play, I'll buy that console. If you don't understand why, well you are not a gamer, just a casual.



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Alcyon said:
ArchangelMadzz said:

So a powerful machine that will become outdated with no upgradability? Can't add any extra ram, can't overclock, can't sell your GPU to buy a newer GPU for a low price?

Seems like it doesn't have any the benefits of a PC that PC gamers choose PC for. 

Ok, some of you don't understand what a hardcore gamer is. A hardcore gamer will buy a console/PC to play the game he likes. Period. Why on earth should we care about anything else? So, please, could you stop with the "PC mustard race". If a console has games I want to play, I'll buy that console. If you don't understand why, well you are not a gamer, just a casual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman



 

 

 

 

 

Pemalite said:
goopy20 said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Gears 5 a failure. But if Uncharted 5 came out and scored a 82 on Metacritic, while selling 20 times less than part 3, I'm sure Sony wouldn't consider it a success either. And no I'm not making that up...

As analyst Daniel Ahmad notes, Gears of War 4 sold 4.5 times better in its launch week, and Gears of War 3 – at the height of the Xbox 360’s success sold 20 times better.

Sales is a tricky thing to quantify though.
A larger platform with more users is obviously going to have even moderately well reviewed games sell better than a console with less users with a highly reviewed game.
Xbox One is certainly a smaller platform than the Xbox 360.

How many copies has Gears of War 5 sold? And how many copies of Gears 3? Let's see if your math and assertions hold up to scrutiny.

goopy20 said:

Truth is that MS has historically failed in running their first party franchises and studios. I mean why do you think Bungie left them or why 95% of the original staff of Rare left the company? MS simply doesn't give their developers the creative freedom to persue new franchises. That's why MS is never going to beat Sony with their exclusives. Therefore, it would make sense for MS to release a more powerful console next gen as that would at least be a proper reason to pick the next Xbox over the ps5. I've never seen any numbers on how the Xbox one X sold compared to the ps4 pro, but I'm guessing the X outsold the pro. If the same thing will happen with a mass market "regular" console is the question, of course. Especially if they plan to sell it for $599 or more, but I get MS's logic behind it. 

In saying that... RARE has put out some solid titles, not industry leading like during the SNES/N64 days, but solid titles either way.

Kameo is probably very underrated, Nuts and Bolts was enjoyable, Viva Pinata was interestingly... Like Crack. I had to force myself to stop playing it.
Perfect Dark Zero had it's shortfalls, but was still a fun game.

Conker Live and Reloaded for the Original Xbox was absolutely amazing.

Killer Instinct was probably one of the most refreshing fighters in years, even if it was badly managed. (And only received input form RARE.)

And then we have Everwild, which looks absolutely gorgeous coming up, it was obviously inspired by Breath of the Wild and Avatar, which isn't a bad thing.

As for exclusives and creative freedom... I think you haven't been paying attention, Microsoft of today is not the same Microsoft from 10 years ago, I would wait and see what happens on the games front... Either way, we all have different tastes when it comes to games, some gamers will resonate with Microsofts titles, others with Sony's and the others with PC or Nintendo.

DonFerrari said:

PS4Pro is about 20% of the sales of PS4 total since launch. So let's say PS4 total 5:1 PS4Pro. In VGC PS4 total have done about 3:1 against X1 total.

So let's say that for a total 1M PS4 sold PS4Pro was 200k, and X1 would then be 350k. So X1X would need to be 200k+ of 350k total or 57% of X1 total (and being X1 sold for 199 or less, with SAD making strong sales, and X1X 499 I think it doesn't make for over half of the total of X1 sales).

So with this data in hand I think PS4Pro outsells X1X even if X1X plays the better version of multiplats for 100 USD more investment on HW.

I don't think the Xbox One X has been the runaway sales success that Microsoft wanted anyway, it hasn't been a failure by any stretch, but it has certainly helped turn around the misconception that the Xbox One is an inferior platform from a hardware perspective which has probably helped their brand image.
I would consider X1X to have been successful in sales and not losing money, but it didn't really change the sales curve of Xbox or helped they reduce the rate PS4 was increasing the lead, but considering they were able to put better versions of the multiplats and people enjoyed the console I have nothing against it.

Mr Puggsly said:

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."

Pretty difficult to top Donkey Kong Country 1,2 and 3 and Killer Instinct on the SNES... And then beat Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong and Conker on the Nintendo 64.

RARE's titles haven't been bad on the Xbox, if anything I think they are criminally underrated most of the time, but they certainly haven't been leading the industry. - In saying that, the industry is very different than the SNES/N64 era anyway, lots more competition.

NextGen_Gamer said:

Source: https://wccftech.com/xbox-scarlett-apu-die-shot-analysis-die-size-estimated/

WCCF Tech has estimated the Xbox Series X die size, and it's looking at least possible it will have that rumored 3584 stream processors...

For context, the die size is an estimate but based on the very real die shot that Phil Spencer put on his Twitter account yesterday. So that really is the Xbox Series X processor. The estimate can be off, but not by a whole lot...

After correcting for perspective, they put it at 401mm² - an increase over the 359mm² Project Scorpio die (on 16-nm) in the Xbox One X.

Here is how we get to 3584 shaders:

Xbox Series X on TSMC 7-nm = 401mm²

AMD "Navi 10" (Radeon 5700 XT) with 2560 SPs on TSMC 7-nm = 251mm²

AMD "Zen 2" Chiplet containing 8 cores/16 threads with all L2 and L3 cache, on TSMC 7-nm = 70-78mm²

"Navi 10" + "Zen 2" chiplet = ~330mm²

That leaves roughly about 70mm² leftover. The "Zen 2" chiplet is the CPU cores/cache only, but that "Navi 10" die size does include all of the memory controllers (256-bit anyways) and video decoders/display output logic. That leaves a good 70mm² to play with to get to 401mm². I'm not sure if that's enough to increase the textures and shaders to the rumored 224 TMUs/3584 SPs, but I think it's fairly close.

350-400mm2~ tend to be the sweet spot for consoles.

The Xbox One launched with a 363mm2 chip, Xbox One X with a 359mm2 chip.

The Xbox 360 launched with multiple chips, CPU was 168mm2, GPU 182mm2, eDRAM 80mm2. - So it took allot of space when combined.


Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

Please list the some of critical and commercial acclaim under MS.

Well according to VGChartz Kinect Sports is their 3rd best selling game. While Kinect Sports 2 sold a couple million, which is still considerably better sales than most of their games.

It may not be a success, its also very polarizing, but Banjo N&B is fucking great. While Viva Pinata actually did well, had multiple releases and a TV show!

Its difficult to quantify since we don't get actual numbers, but it does appear Killer Instinct (2013) and Sea of Thieves did very well. KI had support for like four years and I found this link about Sea of Thieves. https://gamingbolt.com/sea-of-thieves-still-has-millions-of-players-says-rare-plans-to-continue-supporting-it

People have the impression MS acquired Rare and it was all failure. That's not really the case and its why they still exist.

I did loved Viva Piñata, and yes Banjo N&B was good enough. But Kinect Sports even selling a lot isn't memorable at all.

I don't think Rare is all failure but it doesn't have near the relevance it once had, unfortunately (and I don't blame MS for that, sure they have their share on it, but it is a combination of factors over more than one decade).

Still I said critical and commercial acclaim. KS sold good but it isn't critical acclaim nor memorable, VP I don't remember selling that great (but for all the fun it was I don't think people will remember it for decades after like DK and GoldenEye), Banjo I haven't seem people really happy over it (reason why the Yooka Laylee got hype, and didn't deliver).

But if you were considering this as success then sure they had, I won't compare metrics we both would use but will agree that yes they have kept alive and putting games up. I don't like what they did in SoT (was interested in the reveal, but that gone down fast), but I hope they can make a big hit in all aspects for their next game, they still have the potential I believe.

exclusive_console said:
Pemalite said:

Nah. Flops are flops. They are the same math.

In compute scenarios Vega 7 will beat Navi.

Comparing previous gen to current with same CU is going to give lot more performance according to AMD. So tflops number can be misleading.  Lockhart if exist and is 4tf is going outperform the current X. If the new X is 12tf RDNA that is very powerful. Even PS5 9.2tf is big jump compared to the current gen console than the tf number suggest.

DonFerrari said:

PS4Pro is about 20% of the sales of PS4 total since launch. So let's say PS4 total 5:1 PS4Pro. In VGC PS4 total have done about 3:1 against X1 total.

So let's say that for a total 1M PS4 sold PS4Pro was 200k, and X1 would then be 350k. So X1X would need to be 200k+ of 350k total or 57% of X1 total (and being X1 sold for 199 or less, with SAD making strong sales, and X1X 499 I think it doesn't make for over half of the total of X1 sales).

So with this data in hand I think PS4Pro outsells X1X even if X1X plays the better version of multiplats for 100 USD more investment on HW.

I agree. X has had very little impact and I would not be surprised if 90% of people are the same Xbox owner who simply upgraded their console. IMO if lockhart is true and is going to be some 200$ cheaper than X is definitely going to outsell it and might give PS5 some competition. Price and games are more important factor than power. Even on PC very few PC gamers game on 4K. The mainstream always purchase midrange stuff

I expect lockhart to sell more than XSX, but not sure how much it will do against PS5 if it truly is a system 100 cheaper than PS5 but being 1080p vs 4k.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

I expect lockhart to sell more than XSX, but not sure how much it will do against PS5 if it truly is a system 100 cheaper than PS5 but being 1080p vs 4k.

If the game will be 1080p on Lockhart, it won't be 4k on PS5 or if a game will be 4k on PS5, it won't be only 1080p on Lockhart even if Lockhart will be really only as strong as leaks suggested. 

Don't make it much weaker as it is.



haxxiy said:
Alcyon said:

Ok, some of you don't understand what a hardcore gamer is. A hardcore gamer will buy a console/PC to play the game he likes. Period. Why on earth should we care about anything else? So, please, could you stop with the "PC mustard race". If a console has games I want to play, I'll buy that console. If you don't understand why, well you are not a gamer, just a casual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy



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Alcyon said:

ArchangelMadzz said:

So a powerful machine that will become outdated with no upgradability? Can't add any extra ram, can't overclock, can't sell your GPU to buy a newer GPU for a low price?

Seems like it doesn't have any the benefits of a PC that PC gamers choose PC for. 

Ok, some of you don't understand what a hardcore gamer is. A hardcore gamer will buy a console/PC to play the game he likes. Period. Why on earth should we care about anything else? So, please, could you stop with the "PC mustard race". If a console has games I want to play, I'll buy that console. If you don't understand why, well you are not a gamer, just a casual.

You've not answered the original question. You said games are why people buy the console.

All the games that the new Xbox has that a gamer would want to play would also be on PC. So why would a PC gamer buy an Xbox Series X?



There's only 2 races: White and 'Political Agenda'
2 Genders: Male and 'Political Agenda'
2 Hairstyles for female characters: Long and 'Political Agenda'
2 Sexualities: Straight and 'Political Agenda'

DonFerrari said:

Mr Puggsly said:

Well according to VGChartz Kinect Sports is their 3rd best selling game. While Kinect Sports 2 sold a couple million, which is still considerably better sales than most of their games.

It may not be a success, its also very polarizing, but Banjo N&B is fucking great. While Viva Pinata actually did well, had multiple releases and a TV show!

Its difficult to quantify since we don't get actual numbers, but it does appear Killer Instinct (2013) and Sea of Thieves did very well. KI had support for like four years and I found this link about Sea of Thieves. https://gamingbolt.com/sea-of-thieves-still-has-millions-of-players-says-rare-plans-to-continue-supporting-it

People have the impression MS acquired Rare and it was all failure. That's not really the case and its why they still exist.

I did loved Viva Piñata, and yes Banjo N&B was good enough. But Kinect Sports even selling a lot isn't memorable at all.

I don't think Rare is all failure but it doesn't have near the relevance it once had, unfortunately (and I don't blame MS for that, sure they have their share on it, but it is a combination of factors over more than one decade).

Still I said critical and commercial acclaim. KS sold good but it isn't critical acclaim nor memorable, VP I don't remember selling that great (but for all the fun it was I don't think people will remember it for decades after like DK and GoldenEye), Banjo I haven't seem people really happy over it (reason why the Yooka Laylee got hype, and didn't deliver).

But if you were considering this as success then sure they had, I won't compare metrics we both would use but will agree that yes they have kept alive and putting games up. I don't like what they did in SoT (was interested in the reveal, but that gone down fast), but I hope they can make a big hit in all aspects for their next game, they still have the potential I believe.

exclusive_console said:

Comparing previous gen to current with same CU is going to give lot more performance according to AMD. So tflops number can be misleading.  Lockhart if exist and is 4tf is going outperform the current X. If the new X is 12tf RDNA that is very powerful. Even PS5 9.2tf is big jump compared to the current gen console than the tf number suggest.

I expect lockhart to sell more than XSX, but not sure how much it will do against PS5 if it truly is a system 100 cheaper than PS5 but being 1080p vs 4k.

Kinect Sports was locked behind an expensive accessory so the success of that game is even more surprising. I enjoyed Kinect Sports, I actually liked the concept of Kinect but I don't feel like games relying on expensive accessories really works out in the long run.

I didn't really feel critical success was important, especially when you consider some of their MS content has aged better than many of their older and more critically successful content. I never understood the hype critically acclaimed Rare games, not aging well is a reflection of these games always being flawed.

Killer Instinct (2013) would have reviewed well over time. The critics just looked at the launch version though which was more like a demo of content. Sea of Thieves was a critical failure, yet it was successful even at launch. So the opinions of critics aren't always crucial.

If Lockhart is 4TF and PS5 is 9TF, it shouldn't be 1080p vs 4K. It might be 1440p vs 4K. But nobody should expect every PS5 game to be 4K especially if graphics are being pushed forward and developers aim for 60 fps. Those would be the experiences I would expect Lockhart to do 1080p.

But I expect Lockhart to have 4K content as well, as PS4 Pro and X1 do.

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ArchangelMadzz said:
Alcyon said:

Ok, some of you don't understand what a hardcore gamer is. A hardcore gamer will buy a console/PC to play the game he likes. Period. Why on earth should we care about anything else? So, please, could you stop with the "PC mustard race". If a console has games I want to play, I'll buy that console. If you don't understand why, well you are not a gamer, just a casual.

You've not answered the original question. You said games are why people buy the console.

All the games that the new Xbox has that a gamer would want to play would also be on PC. So why would a PC gamer buy an Xbox Series X?

When were the Halo's games released on PC again?



Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

I did loved Viva Piñata, and yes Banjo N&B was good enough. But Kinect Sports even selling a lot isn't memorable at all.

I don't think Rare is all failure but it doesn't have near the relevance it once had, unfortunately (and I don't blame MS for that, sure they have their share on it, but it is a combination of factors over more than one decade).

Still I said critical and commercial acclaim. KS sold good but it isn't critical acclaim nor memorable, VP I don't remember selling that great (but for all the fun it was I don't think people will remember it for decades after like DK and GoldenEye), Banjo I haven't seem people really happy over it (reason why the Yooka Laylee got hype, and didn't deliver).

But if you were considering this as success then sure they had, I won't compare metrics we both would use but will agree that yes they have kept alive and putting games up. I don't like what they did in SoT (was interested in the reveal, but that gone down fast), but I hope they can make a big hit in all aspects for their next game, they still have the potential I believe.

I expect lockhart to sell more than XSX, but not sure how much it will do against PS5 if it truly is a system 100 cheaper than PS5 but being 1080p vs 4k.

Kinect Sports was locked behind an expensive accessory so the success of that game is even more surprising. I enjoyed Kinect Sports, I actually liked the concept of Kinect but I don't feel like games relying on expensive accessories really works out in the long run.

I didn't really feel critical success was important, especially when you consider some of their MS content has aged better than many of their older and more critically successful content. I never understood the hype critically acclaimed Rare games, not aging well is a reflection of these games always being flawed.

Killer Instinct (2013) would have reviewed well over time. The critics just looked at the launch version though which was more like a demo of content. Sea of Thieves was a critical failure, yet it was successful even at launch. So the opinions of critics aren't always crucial.

If Lockhart is 4TF and PS5 is 9TF, it shouldn't be 1080p vs 4K. It might be 1440p vs 4K. But nobody should expect every PS5 game to be 4K especially if graphics are being pushed forward and developers aim for 60 fps. Those would be the experiences I would expect Lockhart to do 1080p.

But I expect Lockhart to have 4K content as well, as PS4 Pro and X1 do.

Well TVs are 1080p and 4k, so 1440p will need upscaling (and sure we don't know exactly what will be in the end, but I am going from the rumor of it being aimed at 1080p60fps, which sure may be wrong and MS do a clever 1440k internal resolution with native upscaler chip and deliver 4k that for general customers will be enough to convince them.

I don't think PS5 will aim for 60fps, that isn't the biggest thing on console gaming so far and I don't think it will be next gen. Sure some genres we will have 4k60fps (racer/fighters) some we may have 1080p60fps with upscale (like competitive FPS) and most will be 4k30fps (and sure some will even be less than 4k even on 30fps to increase other IQ aspects), still the 9Tf rumor on PS5 is unlikely (with both consoles launching together I don't think Sony is aiming for a 30% weaker HW).

I loved the concept of Kinect (will not comment on it not being achievable at that moment because of technology, but it was a needed step to keep developing over it and I hope it get back with more VR/AR solutions), but I can't say Kinect Sports was a critical acclaim and sales success because Kinect itself was the success and KS was bundled (KS2 sold very little in comparison). Still as I said if you consider the cases you pointed as success I can accept that without problem even though I enjoy their NES/SNES/N64 games a much more and don't think they have really aged bad.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Gears 5 a failure. But if Uncharted 5 came out and scored a 82 on Metacritic, while selling 20 times less than part 3, I'm sure Sony wouldn't consider it a success either. And no I'm not making that up...

As analyst Daniel Ahmad notes, Gears of War 4 sold 4.5 times better in its launch week, and Gears of War 3 – at the height of the Xbox 360’s success sold 20 times better.

Truth is that MS has historically failed in running their first party franchises and studios. I mean why do you think Bungie left them or why 95% of the original staff of Rare left the company? MS simply doesn't give their developers the creative freedom to persue new franchises. That's why MS is never going to beat Sony with their exclusives. Therefore, it would make sense for MS to release a more powerful console next gen as that would at least be a proper reason to pick the next Xbox over the ps5. I've never seen any numbers on how the Xbox one X sold compared to the ps4 pro, but I'm guessing the X outsold the pro. If the same thing will happen with a mass market "regular" console is the question, of course. Especially if they plan to sell it for $599 or more, but I get MS's logic behind it. 

You suggested Gears 3 sold 20 times better than Gears 4. But now you're saying at launch Gears 3 at sold 20 times better. In semi educated opinion, that all sounds like bullshit.

According to this site, which only has physical numbers. Gears 3 sold 6.22 million, while Gears 4 sold 3.38 million. When it comes to actual digital sales its very likely Gears 4 has an edge there given digital sales became more common on X1. So this Gears 3 selling 20 times more argument just sounds like bullshit. Also, Phil claimed Gears 5 sold better than Gears 4 which sounds strange, maybe he just meant launch numbers, but that's what he claimed.

Again, Bungie left to make a Halo clone with RPG elements. Meanwhile Rare had to evolve because the games that made them successful don't do well on Xbox. Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS.

Sony's games haven't been that creative to be fair. Sony for the most part has just been interested in 3rd person story driven experiences. They're having more success now, but that doesn't mean they're being creative or diverse with genres or gameplay.

What I actually like about MS is their games actually do feel a little more diverse. Due to their content being more gameplay focused versus story driven, I spend more time with MS games. But to each their own. Also, MS has more studios now so I think you will see more unique projects coming from them. That includes the story driven experiences Sony fans seem to enjoy.

Currently I believe MS is gonna have the low end and high end console for the 9th gen. They're hyping a powerful console, but the masses want something more affordable that plays the same content.

Well, there's no arguing taste, of course. If you love Halo, Gears and Forza and want MS to just stick to these 3 franchises for all eternity, then fine. I'm merely explaining why the vast majority will stick to a Sony console based on the exclusives both companies have launched. It was a huge deal when MS took over Rare but after MS forced them to spend a whole console generation making Kinect shovelware, they are now a mere shell of what they once were. I mean what was the last game Rare made that got decent reviews? 

Not trying to hate on the next gen Xbox because like I said, I think it's great if they will launch something with beastly specs. It's the reason why I loved the original Xbox in the first place. The whole thing about launching a second console sounds pretty terrible, though. The beauty of consoles is that developers can push the hardware to it's upmost limits while getting the best visuals possible on screen. Making all games native 4k and 60 or even 120fps isn't that imo. Basically we would be playing the same games we are playing now but at a higher fps and resolution, which isn't even that noticeable when you're sitting away from a tv. It would be way better if they were still locked at 30fps and 1080p (or 1440p) with a huge boost in overall visual fidelity and ray tracing. If developers would use the cheaper Xbox as the base console, all games on the proper next gen consoles will be seriously hold back because of it.