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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Eurogamer: PS5 and Xbox Series X Spec Leak.

Mr Puggsly said:
goopy20 said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Gears 5 a failure. But if Uncharted 5 came out and scored a 82 on Metacritic, while selling 20 times less than part 3, I'm sure Sony wouldn't consider it a success either. And no I'm not making that up...

As analyst Daniel Ahmad notes, Gears of War 4 sold 4.5 times better in its launch week, and Gears of War 3 – at the height of the Xbox 360’s success sold 20 times better.

Truth is that MS has historically failed in running their first party franchises and studios. I mean why do you think Bungie left them or why 95% of the original staff of Rare left the company? MS simply doesn't give their developers the creative freedom to persue new franchises. That's why MS is never going to beat Sony with their exclusives. Therefore, it would make sense for MS to release a more powerful console next gen as that would at least be a proper reason to pick the next Xbox over the ps5. I've never seen any numbers on how the Xbox one X sold compared to the ps4 pro, but I'm guessing the X outsold the pro. If the same thing will happen with a mass market "regular" console is the question, of course. Especially if they plan to sell it for $599 or more, but I get MS's logic behind it. 

You suggested Gears 3 sold 20 times better than Gears 4. But now you're saying at launch Gears 3 at sold 20 times better. In semi educated opinion, that all sounds like bullshit.

According to this site, which only has physical numbers. Gears 3 sold 6.22 million, while Gears 4 sold 3.38 million. When it comes to actual digital sales its very likely Gears 4 has an edge there given digital sales became more common on X1. So this Gears 3 selling 20 times more argument just sounds like bullshit. Also, Phil claimed Gears 5 sold better than Gears 4 which sounds strange, maybe he just meant launch numbers, but that's what he claimed.

Again, Bungie left to make a Halo clone with RPG elements. Meanwhile Rare had to evolve because the games that made them successful don't do well on Xbox. Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS.

Sony's games haven't been that creative to be fair. Sony for the most part has just been interested in 3rd person story driven experiences. They're having more success now, but that doesn't mean they're being creative or diverse with genres or gameplay.

What I actually like about MS is their games actually do feel a little more diverse. Due to their content being more gameplay focused versus story driven, I spend more time with MS games. But to each their own. Also, MS has more studios now so I think you will see more unique projects coming from them. That includes the story driven experiences Sony fans seem to enjoy.

Currently I believe MS is gonna have the low end and high end console for the 9th gen. They're hyping a powerful console, but the masses want something more affordable that plays the same content.

The greatest success of RARE was on Nintendo NES, SNES and N64.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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DonFerrari said:

The greatest success of RARE was on Nintendo NES, SNES and N64.

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."



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Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

The greatest success of RARE was on Nintendo NES, SNES and N64.

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."

Please list the some of critical and commercial acclaim under MS.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Source: https://wccftech.com/xbox-scarlett-apu-die-shot-analysis-die-size-estimated/

WCCF Tech has estimated the Xbox Series X die size, and it's looking at least possible it will have that rumored 3584 stream processors...

For context, the die size is an estimate but based on the very real die shot that Phil Spencer put on his Twitter account yesterday. So that really is the Xbox Series X processor. The estimate can be off, but not by a whole lot...

After correcting for perspective, they put it at 401mm² - an increase over the 359mm² Project Scorpio die (on 16-nm) in the Xbox One X.

Here is how we get to 3584 shaders:

Xbox Series X on TSMC 7-nm = 401mm²

AMD "Navi 10" (Radeon 5700 XT) with 2560 SPs on TSMC 7-nm = 251mm²

AMD "Zen 2" Chiplet containing 8 cores/16 threads with all L2 and L3 cache, on TSMC 7-nm = 70-78mm²

"Navi 10" + "Zen 2" chiplet = ~330mm²

That leaves roughly about 70mm² leftover. The "Zen 2" chiplet is the CPU cores/cache only, but that "Navi 10" die size does include all of the memory controllers (256-bit anyways) and video decoders/display output logic. That leaves a good 70mm² to play with to get to 401mm². I'm not sure if that's enough to increase the textures and shaders to the rumored 224 TMUs/3584 SPs, but I think it's fairly close.



goopy20 said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Gears 5 a failure. But if Uncharted 5 came out and scored a 82 on Metacritic, while selling 20 times less than part 3, I'm sure Sony wouldn't consider it a success either. And no I'm not making that up...

As analyst Daniel Ahmad notes, Gears of War 4 sold 4.5 times better in its launch week, and Gears of War 3 – at the height of the Xbox 360’s success sold 20 times better.

Sales is a tricky thing to quantify though.
A larger platform with more users is obviously going to have even moderately well reviewed games sell better than a console with less users with a highly reviewed game.
Xbox One is certainly a smaller platform than the Xbox 360.

How many copies has Gears of War 5 sold? And how many copies of Gears 3? Let's see if your math and assertions hold up to scrutiny.

goopy20 said:

Truth is that MS has historically failed in running their first party franchises and studios. I mean why do you think Bungie left them or why 95% of the original staff of Rare left the company? MS simply doesn't give their developers the creative freedom to persue new franchises. That's why MS is never going to beat Sony with their exclusives. Therefore, it would make sense for MS to release a more powerful console next gen as that would at least be a proper reason to pick the next Xbox over the ps5. I've never seen any numbers on how the Xbox one X sold compared to the ps4 pro, but I'm guessing the X outsold the pro. If the same thing will happen with a mass market "regular" console is the question, of course. Especially if they plan to sell it for $599 or more, but I get MS's logic behind it. 

In saying that... RARE has put out some solid titles, not industry leading like during the SNES/N64 days, but solid titles either way.

Kameo is probably very underrated, Nuts and Bolts was enjoyable, Viva Pinata was interestingly... Like Crack. I had to force myself to stop playing it.
Perfect Dark Zero had it's shortfalls, but was still a fun game.

Conker Live and Reloaded for the Original Xbox was absolutely amazing.

Killer Instinct was probably one of the most refreshing fighters in years, even if it was badly managed. (And only received input form RARE.)

And then we have Everwild, which looks absolutely gorgeous coming up, it was obviously inspired by Breath of the Wild and Avatar, which isn't a bad thing.

As for exclusives and creative freedom... I think you haven't been paying attention, Microsoft of today is not the same Microsoft from 10 years ago, I would wait and see what happens on the games front... Either way, we all have different tastes when it comes to games, some gamers will resonate with Microsofts titles, others with Sony's and the others with PC or Nintendo.

DonFerrari said:

PS4Pro is about 20% of the sales of PS4 total since launch. So let's say PS4 total 5:1 PS4Pro. In VGC PS4 total have done about 3:1 against X1 total.

So let's say that for a total 1M PS4 sold PS4Pro was 200k, and X1 would then be 350k. So X1X would need to be 200k+ of 350k total or 57% of X1 total (and being X1 sold for 199 or less, with SAD making strong sales, and X1X 499 I think it doesn't make for over half of the total of X1 sales).

So with this data in hand I think PS4Pro outsells X1X even if X1X plays the better version of multiplats for 100 USD more investment on HW.

I don't think the Xbox One X has been the runaway sales success that Microsoft wanted anyway, it hasn't been a failure by any stretch, but it has certainly helped turn around the misconception that the Xbox One is an inferior platform from a hardware perspective which has probably helped their brand image.

Mr Puggsly said:
DonFerrari said:

The greatest success of RARE was on Nintendo NES, SNES and N64.

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."

Pretty difficult to top Donkey Kong Country 1,2 and 3 and Killer Instinct on the SNES... And then beat Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong and Conker on the Nintendo 64.

RARE's titles haven't been bad on the Xbox, if anything I think they are criminally underrated most of the time, but they certainly haven't been leading the industry. - In saying that, the industry is very different than the SNES/N64 era anyway, lots more competition.

NextGen_Gamer said:

Source: https://wccftech.com/xbox-scarlett-apu-die-shot-analysis-die-size-estimated/

WCCF Tech has estimated the Xbox Series X die size, and it's looking at least possible it will have that rumored 3584 stream processors...

For context, the die size is an estimate but based on the very real die shot that Phil Spencer put on his Twitter account yesterday. So that really is the Xbox Series X processor. The estimate can be off, but not by a whole lot...

After correcting for perspective, they put it at 401mm² - an increase over the 359mm² Project Scorpio die (on 16-nm) in the Xbox One X.

Here is how we get to 3584 shaders:

Xbox Series X on TSMC 7-nm = 401mm²

AMD "Navi 10" (Radeon 5700 XT) with 2560 SPs on TSMC 7-nm = 251mm²

AMD "Zen 2" Chiplet containing 8 cores/16 threads with all L2 and L3 cache, on TSMC 7-nm = 70-78mm²

"Navi 10" + "Zen 2" chiplet = ~330mm²

That leaves roughly about 70mm² leftover. The "Zen 2" chiplet is the CPU cores/cache only, but that "Navi 10" die size does include all of the memory controllers (256-bit anyways) and video decoders/display output logic. That leaves a good 70mm² to play with to get to 401mm². I'm not sure if that's enough to increase the textures and shaders to the rumored 224 TMUs/3584 SPs, but I think it's fairly close.

350-400mm2~ tend to be the sweet spot for consoles.

The Xbox One launched with a 363mm2 chip, Xbox One X with a 359mm2 chip.

The Xbox 360 launched with multiple chips, CPU was 168mm2, GPU 182mm2, eDRAM 80mm2. - So it took allot of space when combined.


Last edited by Pemalite - on 07 January 2020

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Mr Puggsly said:
method114 said:

Yea to play exclusives but it's a small group when compared to the whole of gaming. I have both a gaming PC and PS4. MS has essentially made it unnecessary to ever buy their console if your a PC gamer but I think they benefit more off of the software sales than they would hoping PC gamers buy their consoles for exclusives.

That's exactly the point I am making. Many in the west simply opt for consoles because its a relatively cheap box that's easy to use. Console gamers aren't gonna buy more expensive PCs to play Xbox games. Meanwhile people who buy expensive PCs aren't necessarily interested in buying a Xbox under any circumstance. Millions apparently own Halo Reach on PC now, safe bet most of that is not Xbox owners.

Maybe Gamepass on PC also looks like a better deal if you live in a region where gaming, especially console gaming is expensive. They are bringing the service to a lot of countries Xbox simply isn't that relevant.

People say MS needs to reach out internationally with Xbox, but I don't think its realistic for various reasons. The easiest way to get more people playing their games and potentially trying Gamepass is put it on a popular platform internationally, PC.

I still don't understand why do you operate with all this "unrealistic" stuff when everyone else in the industry does this except Microsoft. Sony, Nintendo, Valve, they all spend lots of resources to expand to new markets even though it probably won't work. But it does work for them I guess just because they really try. MS also was good in terms of it in 360 era, all they had to do is just continue doing the same stuff and of course not having the disastrous launch of Xbox One. It is really stupid to say that for company like Nintendo it is realistic but unrealistic for Microsoft which is way bigger and has lots of resources to do so. As I've already said, relying on just selling their own games through Steam in some markets and basically not give a thing about trying to support Xbox platform there is a huge missed opportunity and a lots of revenue lost. It is just impossible to gain as much money as they can from their own service through Steam XGS games sales. Because also you should keep in mind that 30% cut that Steam takes and regional prices (half of console game price or even less) in the countries where Steam usually dominates (basically, the territories, that you propose to give up and not even try there). And yeah, if we take Japan as an example, I think that in this case, it would be even easier for MS to get them interested in Xbox platform and services thatn in games like Halo, Gears, etc. on Steam.



 

DonFerrari said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."

Please list the some of critical and commercial acclaim under MS.

Well according to VGChartz Kinect Sports is their 3rd best selling game. While Kinect Sports 2 sold a couple million, which is still considerably better sales than most of their games.

It may not be a success, its also very polarizing, but Banjo N&B is fucking great. While Viva Pinata actually did well, had multiple releases and a TV show!

Its difficult to quantify since we don't get actual numbers, but it does appear Killer Instinct (2013) and Sea of Thieves did very well. KI had support for like four years and I found this link about Sea of Thieves. https://gamingbolt.com/sea-of-thieves-still-has-millions-of-players-says-rare-plans-to-continue-supporting-it

People have the impression MS acquired Rare and it was all failure. That's not really the case and its why they still exist.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 07 January 2020

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Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

"Some of Rare's greatest success has actually been with MS."

Pretty difficult to top Donkey Kong Country 1,2 and 3 and Killer Instinct on the SNES... And then beat Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong and Conker on the Nintendo 64.

RARE's titles haven't been bad on the Xbox, if anything I think they are criminally underrated most of the time, but they certainly haven't been leading the industry. - In saying that, the industry is very different than the SNES/N64 era anyway, lots more competition.

As I just mentioned Kinect Sports might be their 3rd best selling games, at least according to this site.

Rare's Xbox games aren't bad. They don't get the praise as their N64 work but I feel they've aged better.

I enjoyed some of their 8 and 16 bit stuff, while most of their N64 stuff never felt good to me. But I did enjoy some of their Xbox stuff, Banjo N&B is fucking great. I played a ton of KI (2013), I haven't played much Sea of Thieves but its a big hit.



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derpysquirtle64 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

That's exactly the point I am making. Many in the west simply opt for consoles because its a relatively cheap box that's easy to use. Console gamers aren't gonna buy more expensive PCs to play Xbox games. Meanwhile people who buy expensive PCs aren't necessarily interested in buying a Xbox under any circumstance. Millions apparently own Halo Reach on PC now, safe bet most of that is not Xbox owners.

Maybe Gamepass on PC also looks like a better deal if you live in a region where gaming, especially console gaming is expensive. They are bringing the service to a lot of countries Xbox simply isn't that relevant.

People say MS needs to reach out internationally with Xbox, but I don't think its realistic for various reasons. The easiest way to get more people playing their games and potentially trying Gamepass is put it on a popular platform internationally, PC.

I still don't understand why do you operate with all this "unrealistic" stuff when everyone else in the industry does this except Microsoft. Sony, Nintendo, Valve, they all spend lots of resources to expand to new markets even though it probably won't work. But it does work for them I guess just because they really try. MS also was good in terms of it in 360 era, all they had to do is just continue doing the same stuff and of course not having the disastrous launch of Xbox One. It is really stupid to say that for company like Nintendo it is realistic but unrealistic for Microsoft which is way bigger and has lots of resources to do so. As I've already said, relying on just selling their own games through Steam in some markets and basically not give a thing about trying to support Xbox platform there is a huge missed opportunity and a lots of revenue lost. It is just impossible to gain as much money as they can from their own service through Steam XGS games sales. Because also you should keep in mind that 30% cut that Steam takes and regional prices (half of console game price or even less) in the countries where Steam usually dominates (basically, the territories, that you propose to give up and not even try there). And yeah, if we take Japan as an example, I think that in this case, it would be even easier for MS to get them interested in Xbox platform and services thatn in games like Halo, Gears, etc. on Steam.

Nintendo and Sony aren't that relevant beyond the NA, Europe and Japan.

According to this site about 4/5 of PS4 sales are just in the NA, Europe and Japan. For Switch is more like 7/8. For X1, 8/9. Ultimately, a vast majority of all console sales are just in three regions.

It absolutely makes sense for Valve to focus internationally given much of that fucking market is using a PC and Windows. This is why I keep saying MS putting its games on PC is a great way to get more international sales that Xbox consoles never could.

I honestly only read the first sentence because that's all it took for me to realize you have no clue what I am saying.

EDIT: Just to put it in perspective. According to this site, Xbox One has sold 29.1 million in NA. While PS4, X1 and Switch have sold 29.32 million in "Rest of World."

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 07 January 2020

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Pemalite said:
exclusive_console said:

If Xbox is 12tf RDNA that is equivalent to 15+tf on GCN. TBH I will be surprised if this is true but these are amazing specs even for 600$ console. Moreover I think they are going to release all their exclusives on gamepass ? Not sure how Microsoft is going to make money but it is great value for consumer. It even looks like mini ATX case.

Nah. Flops are flops. They are the same math.

In compute scenarios Vega 7 will beat Navi.

Comparing previous gen to current with same CU is going to give lot more performance according to AMD. So tflops number can be misleading.  Lockhart if exist and is 4tf is going outperform the current X. If the new X is 12tf RDNA that is very powerful. Even PS5 9.2tf is big jump compared to the current gen console than the tf number suggest.

DonFerrari said:
goopy20 said:

I wouldn't necessarily call Gears 5 a failure. But if Uncharted 5 came out and scored a 82 on Metacritic, while selling 20 times less than part 3, I'm sure Sony wouldn't consider it a success either. And no I'm not making that up...

As analyst Daniel Ahmad notes, Gears of War 4 sold 4.5 times better in its launch week, and Gears of War 3 – at the height of the Xbox 360’s success sold 20 times better.

Truth is that MS has historically failed in running their first party franchises and studios. I mean why do you think Bungie left them or why 95% of the original staff of Rare left the company? MS simply doesn't give their developers the creative freedom to persue new franchises. That's why MS is never going to beat Sony with their exclusives. Therefore, it would make sense for MS to release a more powerful console next gen as that would at least be a proper reason to pick the next Xbox over the ps5. I've never seen any numbers on how the Xbox one X sold compared to the ps4 pro, but I'm guessing the X outsold the pro. If the same thing will happen with a mass market "regular" console is the question, of course. Especially if they plan to sell it for $599 or more, but I get MS's logic behind it. 

PS4Pro is about 20% of the sales of PS4 total since launch. So let's say PS4 total 5:1 PS4Pro. In VGC PS4 total have done about 3:1 against X1 total.

So let's say that for a total 1M PS4 sold PS4Pro was 200k, and X1 would then be 350k. So X1X would need to be 200k+ of 350k total or 57% of X1 total (and being X1 sold for 199 or less, with SAD making strong sales, and X1X 499 I think it doesn't make for over half of the total of X1 sales).

So with this data in hand I think PS4Pro outsells X1X even if X1X plays the better version of multiplats for 100 USD more investment on HW.

I agree. X has had very little impact and I would not be surprised if 90% of people are the same Xbox owner who simply upgraded their console. IMO if lockhart is true and is going to be some 200$ cheaper than X is definitely going to outsell it and might give PS5 some competition. Price and games are more important factor than power. Even on PC very few PC gamers game on 4K. The mainstream always purchase midrange stuff
Last edited by exclusive_console - on 07 January 2020