Forums - Movies Discussion - The "Original Story" - The Kimba VS Simba Controversy, Disney The Lying King

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Remembers me a clip from The Simpsons, where Lisa's Jazz friend dies and appears in the Sky, and then Mufasa also appears and talks by saying "You must avenge my death, Kimba - I mean, Simba"



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chakkra said:
JWeinCom said:

I actually think that something being wildly different from the material it allegedly is copying would actually invalidate the claim that there was copyright infringement. Even if the Lion King was inspired by Kimba (which I don't see much reason to believe) that's not copyright infringement if the end product is completely different.  Fifty Shades of Grey was inspired by Twilight and in fact did use Twilight as its basis(started out as a fanfiction) but the end product is nothing like it, so there's no infringement.  Kimba itself was inspired by Bambi (as was the Lion King), but the end product is nothing like Bambi, so there's no copyright infringement. 

What element did the Lion King take from Kimba that would be so specific that it would amount to copyright infringement?

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

"(S)imba and the other called (K)imba"

Kimba is a localised name. His name is Leo in the original work, which is titled 'Jungle Emperor'. Simba literally means 'lion' in Swahili, which is consistent with all the names in The Lion King.

"both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks"

Zazu isn't a sidekick. He's more like a royal guide/caretaker. Other than being birds and having a similarity with tempers (though nowhere to the same degree), they have nothing in common.

"both had their father killed when they were cubs"

Oh, and did Simba also have several scenes where he dragged his dead father's corpse around?

"both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds"

Yeah, that's not even close to true. Kimba not only didn't talk to the cloud, but the cloud was actually Kimba at the end of the series, after he *spoiler alert* dies.

"And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen)"

Outside of being very common tropes, the lion and hyenas in Kimba are not only not the primary antagonists, they only actually show up in a handful of episodes (out of hundreds). So unimportant, they weren't even included in the compilation movies for the series.

I'm not gonna watch the video you're sharing, but I'd venture to guess at least 90% of the footage it shows, is from the Jungle King Leo movie which released 3 years AFTER The Lion King, and all the comparitive shots from that movie were never in the Kimba source material.

Even if some of it was inspired by Kimba, they'd have no reason to lie about it as the similarities are very superficial at best. Not including the more similar shots from the 1997 movie of Kimba, 3 years after The Lion King.
And if you're gonna point out superficial similarities, then there's basically nothing in the continent of Africa Disney could've used, that wasn't in one of Kimba's random episodes. Which is when it falls into the 'Simpsons did it' dilemma.

Go watch the YMS video that was already shared in this thread. It's two and a half hours, but it's a lot shorter than having to watch all of Kimba, and is far more well sourced and comprehensive than anything else on youtube.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't waste people's time by repeating these fallacies.



sundin13 said:
chakkra said:

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

That video you posted shows clips from the 1997 Kimba film, so by your own logic, Kimba must have ripped off the Lion King... That 1:04 clip? From 1997.

Oops.

If what you say is true then I suppose the creators of that specific movie decided to copy The Lion King, which it would be totally fair in my opinion; but that doesn´t negate the fact that they are way too many similarities between the two shows to deny that there was at least an inspiration from it.



Shaunodon said:
chakkra said:

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

"(S)imba and the other called (K)imba"

Kimba is a localised name. His name is Leo in the original work, which is titled 'Jungle Emperor'. Simba literally means 'lion' in Swahili, which is consistent with all the names in The Lion King.

"both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks"

Zazu isn't a sidekick. He's more like a royal guide/caretaker. Other than being birds and having a similarity with tempers (though nowhere to the same degree), they have nothing in common.

"both had their father killed when they were cubs"

Oh, and did Simba also have several scenes where he dragged his dead father's corpse around?

"both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds"

Yeah, that's not even close to true. Kimba not only didn't talk to the cloud, but the cloud was actually Kimba at the end of the series, after he *spoiler alert* dies.

"And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen)"

Outside of being very common tropes, the lion and hyenas in Kimba are not only not the primary antagonists, they only actually show up in a handful of episodes (out of hundreds). So unimportant, they weren't even included in the compilation movies for the series.

I'm not gonna watch the video you're sharing, but I'd venture to guess at least 90% of the footage it shows, is from the Jungle King Leo movie which released 3 years AFTER The Lion King, and all the comparitive shots from that movie were never in the Kimba source material.

Even if some of it was inspired by Kimba, they'd have no reason to lie about it as the similarities are very superficial at best. Not including the more similar shots from the 1997 movie of Kimba, 3 years after The Lion King.
And if you're gonna point out superficial similarities, then there's basically nothing in the continent of Africa Disney could've used, that wasn't in one of Kimba's random episodes. Which is when it falls into the 'Simpsons did it' dilemma.

Go watch the YMS video that was already shared in this thread. It's two and a half hours, but it's a lot shorter than having to watch all of Kimba, and is far more well sourced and comprehensive than anything else on youtube.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't waste people's time by repeating these fallacies.

If you see all of that as "superficial similarities" then there is nothing else I could say to you. 



chakkra said:

If you see all of that as "superficial similarities" then there is nothing else I could say to you. 

If you're not gonna bother doing any proper research, or at least watch the video which did all the proper research, then you shouldn't really say anything here.



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chakkra said:
sundin13 said:

That video you posted shows clips from the 1997 Kimba film, so by your own logic, Kimba must have ripped off the Lion King... That 1:04 clip? From 1997.

Oops.

If what you say is true then I suppose the creators of that specific movie decided to copy The Lion King, which it would be totally fair in my opinion; but that doesn´t negate the fact that they are way too many similarities between the two shows to deny that there was at least an inspiration from it.

Everything is inspired by other works. That isn't a controversy, that is just normal. I think everyone would agree that there is a possibility of some inspiration being drawn from Kimba, but there the similarities are not anywhere near enough to consider The Lion King a ripoff, or anything close to copyright infringement. There is also a very real possibility that the similarities are just coincidence, as nothing that you mentioned is too unreasonable to be thought of independently of Kimba

Like, for example, you mention the death of a parent, but this is a common trope in Disney movies from well before The Lion King, and this is also an element that was borrowed from Hamlet. There is no need to assume that Kimba was the inspiration for this, when this plot point can already be easily accounted for.



DonFerrari said:
JWeinCom said:

I actually think that something being wildly different from the material it allegedly is copying would actually invalidate the claim that there was copyright infringement. Even if the Lion King was inspired by Kimba (which I don't see much reason to believe) that's not copyright infringement if the end product is completely different.  Fifty Shades of Grey was inspired by Twilight and in fact did use Twilight as its basis(started out as a fanfiction) but the end product is nothing like it, so there's no infringement.  Kimba itself was inspired by Bambi (as was the Lion King), but the end product is nothing like Bambi, so there's no copyright infringement. 

What element did the Lion King take from Kimba that would be so specific that it would amount to copyright infringement?

You can't have your cake and eat it. The use of 100 different teams trying to make a copy of Kimba without breaking copyright law wouldn't make a movie similar to Lion King (which no one can prove would happen or not since it is hypotetical) wouldn't prove they weren't copying the idea or premisse on Kimba. Like in the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

There's nothing I can do to definitively prove that they didn't have Kimba in mind when they were making the product.  But, that's not how we determine that something is copyrighted.  I'm not going to argue over the specific example I gave (I'm simply not committed enough that I want to defend it, so if you think it's a bad argument then fine), but "you can't prove it wasn't copyrighted" is a bad argument that it was.  

chakkra said:
JWeinCom said:

I actually think that something being wildly different from the material it allegedly is copying would actually invalidate the claim that there was copyright infringement. Even if the Lion King was inspired by Kimba (which I don't see much reason to believe) that's not copyright infringement if the end product is completely different.  Fifty Shades of Grey was inspired by Twilight and in fact did use Twilight as its basis(started out as a fanfiction) but the end product is nothing like it, so there's no infringement.  Kimba itself was inspired by Bambi (as was the Lion King), but the end product is nothing like Bambi, so there's no copyright infringement. 

What element did the Lion King take from Kimba that would be so specific that it would amount to copyright infringement?

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

... They both feature a male Lion?  Come on, Kimba didn't invent lions, or the idea of using an animal as a protagonist.  

Simba is Swahili for lion.  It seems pretty reasonable that this is how both came up with the name.  All the lion king characters are named by using African words that describe what they are or a trait they have.  Simba has been used to describe a lion in other media prior.  

Kimba doesn't have a talking bird as a sidekick generally.  There's no major bird character.  There just happened to be a bird he interacted with in some episodes and in the movie.  In the 50 hours or so of Kimba footage he's interacted with pretty much every animal). The bird character in the video you posted is from the 1997 movie (after the Lion King) and is actually quite an idiot who encourages Kimba's son (he's not Kimba's sidekick, but at best his son's) to use leaves in an attempt to fly via catapult, whereas Zazu is overly cautious and pretty much the antithesis.  

You know who else had his father killed when he was a kid?  Hamlet.  Which was openly stated as the major inspiration for The Lion King.  Is it more likely that they took the idea of a dead father from the source they claimed, which happens to be probably the most famous play of all time, or that they just made this up as a cover story?

Also, a character losing a parental figure as a motivating factor is hardly a unique thing *spoilers*.  Bambi, a stated source of inspiration for both, has that.  Batman, Spider-man, Magneto in X-Men First Class, Inigo Montoya, Goku, Gohan, Elsa/Anna, Tarzan, Naruto off the top of my head.  Not all necessarily murdered (although a lot were) but generally being the parent of the hero means there is a good chance you'll be killed.  

As a matter of fact, Kimba did not talk to his dead father in the clouds.  Simply did not happen.  There was an image in the manga where the clouds are in the shape of an adult lion.  Maybe meant to represent Panja or maybe Kimba himself.  Kimba does not interact with this cloud at all, and there is no indication that it is an apparition of any kind.  It doesn't give him fatherly advice.

You know who does interact with an apparition of his dead father?  Hamlet.  Which is again, what the Lion King is actually based on.  So, Simba was going to talk to Mufassa somehow.  If they had him see his father in the stars, Kimba did that too.  Moon?  Done by Kimba.  Just appearing as a ghost in front of him?  Kimba did that.  In the form of the lightning?  Kimba did it.  In his reflection in the water?  Kimba did that.  Kimba apparently saw his dead parents a lot, so whatever method they ultimately decided on was probably going to be something done in Kimba. 

And for that matter, getting advice from a dead character isn't uncommon.  Luke Skywalker does it, Fox McCloud does it, Shawn Hunter in Boy Meets World does it, Naruto does it, Remy from Ratattouille, Phoenix Wright, Harry Potter, Spider-man in Spider-man 3 and so on.  Whatever way they chose to have Simba speak to Mufassa, it was going to be similar to something someone else had done.

Claw and Scar are definitely the best argument.  Although, Claw doesn't really have a scar over his eye, his eye is just like permanently closed.  And personality wise, he's not very much like scar.  Using a darker color for villains is, perhaps unfortunately, not uncommon, nor is having a character of the same race/group allied with the bad guys, or having the evil character have a scar.  Of course, all of those elements coming together is mildly suspicious.  If there were a lot of elements like this, it'd make a case, but there's not enough here.

As pointed out, the shot you use comes from the 1997 movie.  Does that mean Kimba ripped off the Lion King?  No.  If you're both making a movie about Lions, then you're going to likely use the Savanah.  It's not unreasonable that both shows will have a sunset since you generally want to show your setting at different times of days with interesting lighting.  And if I draw the Savannah at sunset, I'm probably going to have something similar to another artist drawing the same thing.

I'm not saying Lion King wasn't inspired by Kimba... cause I don't have access to the creator's minds.  What I am saying is that there's no good reason to believe it was, and Disney's official story (they were making Hamlet with lions) is a far more likely explanation of why the film is the way it is than Disney was secretly inspired by an anime that was really obscure in the US.  



Shaunodon said:
chakkra said:

If you see all of that as "superficial similarities" then there is nothing else I could say to you. 

If you're not gonna bother doing any proper research, or at least watch the video which did all the proper research, then you shouldn't really say anything here.

Ok, let me rephrase that: I don't like your attitude and I won´t keep talking to you. And yes, I will keep posting here and talking to anyone who is willing to have a civil conversation.



JWeinCom said:
DonFerrari said:

You can't have your cake and eat it. The use of 100 different teams trying to make a copy of Kimba without breaking copyright law wouldn't make a movie similar to Lion King (which no one can prove would happen or not since it is hypotetical) wouldn't prove they weren't copying the idea or premisse on Kimba. Like in the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

There's nothing I can do to definitively prove that they didn't have Kimba in mind when they were making the product.  But, that's not how we determine that something is copyrighted.  I'm not going to argue over the specific example I gave (I'm simply not committed enough that I want to defend it, so if you think it's a bad argument then fine), but "you can't prove it wasn't copyrighted" is a bad argument that it was.  

chakkra said:

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

... They both feature a male Lion?  Come on, Kimba didn't invent lions, or the idea of using an animal as a protagonist.  

Simba is Swahili for lion.  It seems pretty reasonable that this is how both came up with the name.  All the lion king characters are named by using African words that describe what they are or a trait they have.  Simba has been used to describe a lion in other media prior.  

Kimba doesn't have a talking bird as a sidekick generally.  There's no major bird character.  There just happened to be a bird he interacted with in some episodes and in the movie.  In the 50 hours or so of Kimba footage he's interacted with pretty much every animal). The bird character in the video you posted is from the 1997 movie (after the Lion King) and is actually quite an idiot who encourages Kimba's son (he's not Kimba's sidekick, but at best his son's) to use leaves in an attempt to fly via catapult, whereas Zazu is overly cautious and pretty much the antithesis.  

You know who else had his father killed when he was a kid?  Hamlet.  Which was openly stated as the major inspiration for The Lion King.  Is it more likely that they took the idea of a dead father from the source they claimed, which happens to be probably the most famous play of all time, or that they just made this up as a cover story?

Also, a character losing a parental figure as a motivating factor is hardly a unique thing *spoilers*.  Bambi, a stated source of inspiration for both, has that.  Batman, Spider-man, Magneto in X-Men First Class, Inigo Montoya, Goku, Gohan, Elsa/Anna, Tarzan, Naruto off the top of my head.  Not all necessarily murdered (although a lot were) but generally being the parent of the hero means there is a good chance you'll be killed.  

As a matter of fact, Kimba did not talk to his dead father in the clouds.  Simply did not happen.  There was an image in the manga where the clouds are in the shape of an adult lion.  Maybe meant to represent Panja or maybe Kimba himself.  Kimba does not interact with this cloud at all, and there is no indication that it is an apparition of any kind.  It doesn't give him fatherly advice.

You know who does interact with an apparition of his dead father?  Hamlet.  Which is again, what the Lion King is actually based on.  So, Simba was going to talk to Mufassa somehow.  If they had him see his father in the stars, Kimba did that too.  Moon?  Done by Kimba.  Just appearing as a ghost in front of him?  Kimba did that.  In the form of the lightning?  Kimba did it.  In his reflection in the water?  Kimba did that.  Kimba apparently saw his dead parents a lot, so whatever method they ultimately decided on was probably going to be something done in Kimba. 

And for that matter, getting advice from a dead character isn't uncommon.  Luke Skywalker does it, Fox McCloud does it, Shawn Hunter in Boy Meets World does it, Naruto does it, Remy from Ratattouille, Phoenix Wright, Harry Potter, Spider-man in Spider-man 3 and so on.  Whatever way they chose to have Simba speak to Mufassa, it was going to be similar to something someone else had done.

Claw and Scar are definitely the best argument.  Although, Claw doesn't really have a scar over his eye, his eye is just like permanently closed.  And personality wise, he's not very much like scar.  Using a darker color for villains is, perhaps unfortunately, not uncommon, nor is having a character of the same race/group allied with the bad guys, or having the evil character have a scar.  Of course, all of those elements coming together is mildly suspicious.  If there were a lot of elements like this, it'd make a case, but there's not enough here.

As pointed out, the shot you use comes from the 1997 movie.  Does that mean Kimba ripped off the Lion King?  No.  If you're both making a movie about Lions, then you're going to likely use the Savanah.  It's not unreasonable that both shows will have a sunset since you generally want to show your setting at different times of days with interesting lighting.  And if I draw the Savannah at sunset, I'm probably going to have something similar to another artist drawing the same thing.

I'm not saying Lion King wasn't inspired by Kimba... cause I don't have access to the creator's minds.  What I am saying is that there's no good reason to believe it was, and Disney's official story (they were making Hamlet with lions) is a far more likely explanation of why the film is the way it is than Disney was secretly inspired by an anime that was really obscure in the US.  

This is where we disagree: You feel the similarities presented are not enough evidence while I feel they are evidence enough; but I guess this is something we will never get the answer for.



chakkra said:
Shaunodon said:

If you're not gonna bother doing any proper research, or at least watch the video which did all the proper research, then you shouldn't really say anything here.

Ok, let me rephrase that: I don't like your attitude and I won´t keep talking to you. And yes, I will keep posting here and talking to anyone who is willing to have a civil conversation.

Civil conversation starts with intellectual honesty, not someone who comes in with a pre-conceived notion, and has only gathered the information (right or wrong) to support that notion.

There's no excuse not to watch the YMS video if you want to have any basis for real argument. But we're done anyway. If you want to repeat common fallacies, someone else can choose to keep correcting you. Not my problem.