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Forums - Movies Discussion - The "Original Story" - The Kimba VS Simba Controversy, Disney The Lying King

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How do you feel with these

I feel betrayed 1 3.23%
 
My Childhood is a lie 1 3.23%
 
Disney is worst and Evil 7 22.58%
 
Murica 0 0%
 
I don't care i support plagiarisme 3 9.68%
 
LOL you are late to the party 19 61.29%
 
Total:31
Shaunodon said:
chakkra said:

Ok, let me rephrase that: I don't like your attitude and I won´t keep talking to you. And yes, I will keep posting here and talking to anyone who is willing to have a civil conversation.

Civil conversation starts with intellectual honesty, not someone who comes in with a pre-conceived notion, and has only gathered the information (right or wrong) to support that notion.

There's no excuse not to watch the YMS video if you want to have any basis for real argument. But we're done anyway. If you want to repeat common fallacies, someone else can choose to keep correcting you. Not my problem.

chakkra said:
Shaunodon said:

"(S)imba and the other called (K)imba"

Kimba is a localised name. His name is Leo in the original work, which is titled 'Jungle Emperor'. Simba literally means 'lion' in Swahili, which is consistent with all the names in The Lion King.

"both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks"

Zazu isn't a sidekick. He's more like a royal guide/caretaker. Other than being birds and having a similarity with tempers (though nowhere to the same degree), they have nothing in common.

"both had their father killed when they were cubs"

Oh, and did Simba also have several scenes where he dragged his dead father's corpse around?

"both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds"

Yeah, that's not even close to true. Kimba not only didn't talk to the cloud, but the cloud was actually Kimba at the end of the series, after he *spoiler alert* dies.

"And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen)"

Outside of being very common tropes, the lion and hyenas in Kimba are not only not the primary antagonists, they only actually show up in a handful of episodes (out of hundreds). So unimportant, they weren't even included in the compilation movies for the series.

I'm not gonna watch the video you're sharing, but I'd venture to guess at least 90% of the footage it shows, is from the Jungle King Leo movie which released 3 years AFTER The Lion King, and all the comparitive shots from that movie were never in the Kimba source material.

Even if some of it was inspired by Kimba, they'd have no reason to lie about it as the similarities are very superficial at best. Not including the more similar shots from the 1997 movie of Kimba, 3 years after The Lion King.
And if you're gonna point out superficial similarities, then there's basically nothing in the continent of Africa Disney could've used, that wasn't in one of Kimba's random episodes. Which is when it falls into the 'Simpsons did it' dilemma.

Go watch the YMS video that was already shared in this thread. It's two and a half hours, but it's a lot shorter than having to watch all of Kimba, and is far more well sourced and comprehensive than anything else on youtube.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't waste people's time by repeating these fallacies.

If you see all of that as "superficial similarities" then there is nothing else I could say to you. 

Well since neither of you want to speak to eachother, then you should each respect each other's wishes in that regard.



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JWeinCom said:
chakkra said:

This is where we disagree: You feel the similarities presented are not enough evidence while I feel they are evidence enough; but I guess this is something we will never get the answer for.

You mentioned several things that are flat out false, such as a bird sidekick or Kimba talking to his father in the clouds that didn't happen, and pointed to a shot that was made after the Lion King.  So... your standards for evidence are a bit low. 

As for the rest of what you posted, I actually explained why they fit far better with the idea that Lion King was inspired by Hamlet than that they were inspired by an obscure manga.  I also showed that a lot of these are very common tropes that appear in many different media.

I actually gave reasons why the evidence is insufficient.  Can you do the same?  For instance, let's take Mufassa's death.  I'd say this is far more likely to be inspired Hamlet since it was a case where the main character's uncle killed his father specifically to become King, which is the exact same plot of Hamlet. Considering that it follows the exact plot of Hamlet, which is far more popular and a stated influence, it is far more likely that this element was inspired by Hamlet, and not Kimba.  Why do you think it is more likely that this plot element was inspired by Kimba? 

We would be falling into the same cycle. You gave me your reasons on why you feel the evidences are not valid, and I disagree with those reasons.
The only way we could settle this is in a court but that´s not possible, so I think it is better just to agree to disagree.



chakkra said:
JWeinCom said:

You mentioned several things that are flat out false, such as a bird sidekick or Kimba talking to his father in the clouds that didn't happen, and pointed to a shot that was made after the Lion King.  So... your standards for evidence are a bit low. 

As for the rest of what you posted, I actually explained why they fit far better with the idea that Lion King was inspired by Hamlet than that they were inspired by an obscure manga.  I also showed that a lot of these are very common tropes that appear in many different media.

I actually gave reasons why the evidence is insufficient.  Can you do the same?  For instance, let's take Mufassa's death.  I'd say this is far more likely to be inspired Hamlet since it was a case where the main character's uncle killed his father specifically to become King, which is the exact same plot of Hamlet. Considering that it follows the exact plot of Hamlet, which is far more popular and a stated influence, it is far more likely that this element was inspired by Hamlet, and not Kimba.  Why do you think it is more likely that this plot element was inspired by Kimba? 

We would be falling into the same cycle. You gave me your reasons on why you feel the evidences are not valid, and I disagree with those reasons.
The only way we could settle this is in a court but that´s not possible, so I think it is better just to agree to disagree.

Well... I actually explained why it's invalid... if you actually had a response, then I'd be open to changing my position.  That's the purpose of discussion.  But if your only response is "nuh-uh" then yeah, it's pointless.



Shaunodon said:
chakkra said:

Both of them feature male lions as main characters, one called (S)imba and the other called (K)imba, both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks, both had their father killed when they were cubs, both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds. And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen). 

And to add insult to the injury, there are plenty of shots that are eerily similar, like WAY too similar. Take a look at this video and go to 01:04 for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHps2iC8W3o

I haven´t watched the show so I am not really able to say how much different they were able to make it to avoid a lawsuit, but to say it is not even inspired by it?

"(S)imba and the other called (K)imba"

Kimba is a localised name. His name is Leo in the original work, which is titled 'Jungle Emperor'. Simba literally means 'lion' in Swahili, which is consistent with all the names in The Lion King.

"both characters have a talking bird as sidekicks"

Zazu isn't a sidekick. He's more like a royal guide/caretaker. Other than being birds and having a similarity with tempers (though nowhere to the same degree), they have nothing in common.

"both had their father killed when they were cubs"

Oh, and did Simba also have several scenes where he dragged his dead father's corpse around?

"both of them talked to their dead father in a vision on the clouds"

Yeah, that's not even close to true. Kimba not only didn't talk to the cloud, but the cloud was actually Kimba at the end of the series, after he *spoiler alert* dies.

"And both shows feature a black haired lion with a scar in its left eye as a villain (with a group of hyenas as henchmen)"

Outside of being very common tropes, the lion and hyenas in Kimba are not only not the primary antagonists, they only actually show up in a handful of episodes (out of hundreds). So unimportant, they weren't even included in the compilation movies for the series.

I'm not gonna watch the video you're sharing, but I'd venture to guess at least 90% of the footage it shows, is from the Jungle King Leo movie which released 3 years AFTER The Lion King, and all the comparitive shots from that movie were never in the Kimba source material.

Even if some of it was inspired by Kimba, they'd have no reason to lie about it as the similarities are very superficial at best. Not including the more similar shots from the 1997 movie of Kimba, 3 years after The Lion King.
And if you're gonna point out superficial similarities, then there's basically nothing in the continent of Africa Disney could've used, that wasn't in one of Kimba's random episodes. Which is when it falls into the 'Simpsons did it' dilemma.

Go watch the YMS video that was already shared in this thread. It's two and a half hours, but it's a lot shorter than having to watch all of Kimba, and is far more well sourced and comprehensive than anything else on youtube.

If you can't be bothered to do that, then don't waste people's time by repeating these fallacies.

So I assule you also think Hunger Games has absolutely nothing to do with Battle Royale then



"Quagmire, are you the type of guy who takes 'no' for an answer ?"
"My lawyer doesn't allow me to answer that question"

PSN ID: skmblake | Feel free to add me

SKMBlake said:

So I assule you also think Hunger Games has absolutely nothing to do with Battle Royale then

I don't care for Hunger Games, haven't seen Battle Royale, so I wouldn't get involved or try to make any argument if it came up. But if I was going to I'd do the bare minimum research, including going through what's already been said or shown in the thread.

Why?



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JWeinCom said:
chakkra said:

We would be falling into the same cycle. You gave me your reasons on why you feel the evidences are not valid, and I disagree with those reasons.
The only way we could settle this is in a court but that´s not possible, so I think it is better just to agree to disagree.

Well... I actually explained why it's invalid... if you actually had a response, then I'd be open to changing my position.  That's the purpose of discussion.  But if your only response is "nuh-uh" then yeah, it's pointless.

No, you explained why YOU feel it's invalid. I already explained the similarities that I find suspicious; you already gave me your reasons why you feel those similarities are not a valid evidence, and I already said that I disagree with the reasons you presented. So really, what else there is to say? 

All discussions don´t need to end with one party changing the other´s mind; like you said, we don´t have access to the creators minds so there is no way to know the actual truth. So yeah, this is all pointless in the end.



chakkra said:
JWeinCom said:

Well... I actually explained why it's invalid... if you actually had a response, then I'd be open to changing my position.  That's the purpose of discussion.  But if your only response is "nuh-uh" then yeah, it's pointless.

No, you explained why YOU feel it's invalid. I already explained the similarities that I find suspicious; you already gave me your reasons why you feel those similarities are not a valid evidence, and I already said that I disagree with the reasons you presented. So really, what else there is to say? 

All discussions don´t need to end with one party changing the other´s mind; like you said, we don´t have access to the creators minds so there is no way to know the actual truth. So yeah, this is all pointless in the end.

All discussions don't have to end with one party changing the other's mind, but they should start with both people being open to that possibility.



Didn't really know about YMS before, but have to say I quite like this guy.



JWeinCom said:
chakkra said:

No, you explained why YOU feel it's invalid. I already explained the similarities that I find suspicious; you already gave me your reasons why you feel those similarities are not a valid evidence, and I already said that I disagree with the reasons you presented. So really, what else there is to say? 

All discussions don´t need to end with one party changing the other´s mind; like you said, we don´t have access to the creators minds so there is no way to know the actual truth. So yeah, this is all pointless in the end.

All discussions don't have to end with one party changing the other's mind, but they should start with both people being open to that possibility.

Yeah indeed, or just disagreeing and be alright with it.

If you dramatize others to the extreme of being villainous for just having a different opinion than you have then it might be more fruitfull to look into yourselves for why you  think so drastically about your opponents/those you're disagreeing with.



"Coincidence never happens a third time."
-Osamu Tezuka
Creator of Astro Boy, Kimba the White Lion

'Kimba was created in 1950, and animated in 1965. Simba: King of Beasts came out in 1940.'

Last edited by Shaunodon - on 29 May 2020