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I choose...

N64 56 48.28%
 
Wii 60 51.72%
 
Total:116
colafitte on 06 May 2019
RolStoppable said:
colafitte said:

Wii just lasted like a normal "failure" Nintendo console lifespan but it definitively did not lasted selling well as long as NES, SNES or DS, and it seems it won't last as long as Switch either. In its 6th year, Wii was selling almost 4x less than just 3 years before. NES, SNES, DS, PS, PS2, X360, PS3, PS4, all lasted more than 6 years, and they were not selling 4x less in its 6th year compared to its 3rd....That was unprecedented in a console that sold as well as Wii in its first few years. Every time you see a graphic showing sales of different consoles you can see how Wii drops in sales way more heavily than any other comparable console. 

Despite N64 being considered a failure compared to PS1, Nintendo went from selling 49M with SNES to 33M with N64 and to 22M with GC. With Wii they went from 102M to barely 15M.

There's a reason why 2012-2016 are one of the least succesfully financial years for Nintendo in its history, and it wasn't because they started suddenly making bad games during those years (in fact it started their most creative years since N64 era). It's because Wii wasn't able to transfer their success into the future. I'm pretty sure more people are going to be hyped by the Switch successor than they were for the Wii back then.

And to explain my point, i was referring to motion controls as the use of nunchuks in Nintendo games. You don't have to play anymore Mario 3D games, Zelda games, ...only with just that technology. Nintendo backtracked and offered conventional gameplay as its main way to play the games. Yes, there's still motion control features (optional if you want), but you basically play most Switch games in conventional ways again and the most prefered way to play those games is with a classic pad style. Wii main characteristic was its Nunchuk controls. In 2006 it seemed this was going to be the next way of how to play videogames, but here we are in 2019 and people prefer a conventional pad again. I will bet my money, that most people prefer now playing their Nintendo games with a pad than with those nunchuks. That was the "fad" part of my point, the games in itself were not a fad, they were great in fact.

There's a lot of flawed logic necessary to arrive at your desired conclusion.

1. In your first paragraph you pretend that Wii's lifecycle is comparable in length to the N64, GC and Wii U, but it's actually similar to the SNES.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/nintendo-historical-shipment-data-1983-present.701305/

Nintendo's failures sold next to nothing in their sixth full year, because their fifth full year already made it clear that the consoles are on their way out. You also use a comparison between third and sixth year to point out something unprecedented about the Wii, but you omit that Wii's third party support was also unprecedented for a console as successful as Wii. I've talked about the importance of a healthy software pipeline with you before and there shouldn't be an argument that Wii's software pipeline was horrendous from its fifth year onwards.

2. In your second and third paragraph you blame the failure of a follow-up console on the preceding console. That's like making the argument that the PS2 was Sony's worst home console and the PS3's sales and financials prove it. Your argument is like saying that the PS3 is not responsible for its own struggles and that those tough years for Sony were caused by the PS2.

3. The huge error that Nintendo made with the Wii U is that they turned their back on motion controls and returned to the conventional dual analog setup with the Wii U Gamepad. The market figures that games for any given console will be designed for its main controller and the Wii U didn't have a motion controller. Unsurprisingly, the Wii audience didn't want to migrate to the Wii U because of that. The core of the issue is that Nintendo stopped making games like they did for Wii aside from a few token efforts in hopes to trick people into buying a console that isn't at all like the Wii, but that didn't work. The Wii didn't stop going; Mario Kart Wii added yet another 100k copies to its total during the quarter January to March 2019 while Just Dance kept releasing each and every year, meaning that there was a new game release for Wii twelve years after its launch.

If Nintendo ever releases a Wii Classic console like the NES and SNES Classic, it will sell very well because Wii's legacy is good. The same wouldn't hold true for Classic versions of the N64, GC and Wii U.

The preferences posted in this thread have no real value as far as real world reputation of consoles is concerned. It has been a common theme since the beginning of VGC that preferences and sales of Nintendo consoles don't align. Since sales predictions are often influenced by personal preferences, it isn't surprising that a large group of Nintendo fans on VGC had higher lifetime sales expectations for Wii U than Switch prior to their respective launches.

1. My point here was just that, Wii drop after 5-6th year was like nothing compared before, not even like N64 or GC, and definitively not like a console like SNES. According to that super interesting graph on Nintendo shipments (thanks for the info) SNES shipped 1'8M in Japan, 2'9M in USA and 800k in others, so around 5'5M total in its 6th year. SNES best year was its 3rd with 4'1M in Japan, 5'6M in USA and 2'4M in others for a total of 12'1M that year. That's basically around a 45% compared. Wii in its 3rd year summed 26M compared to 9'9M in its 6th year (based on the same graph) so around 38% compared to that year. That's already a huge difference, but SNES still sold fairly fine another 4 years more in NA, while Wii stopped production a year later worldwide. That's what i was comparing. NES, SNES, DS,... did indeed lasted way longer than Wii.

And yes, software for Wii after 2010 was horrendous indeed, but that's not a point in favor to Wii....That's why it sold so poorly in later years. The lack of the same 3rd party support Wii received its first years compared after year 5 or 6 is a clear hint of what the consumers tendecies were at the time.

2. My bad in expressing myself badly with this point. What i was trying to say is that N64 was basically replicating the success of the previous console during the first years and ended selling 67% of what SNES sold (because for whaterver reason, Japan didn't bought N64 consoles like with SNES). If it wasn't for the japanese market, N64 would've been similar in sales to SNES, so my point was that in the west N64 was not a failed console, it just looked bad compared to what Sony was doing with PS1. So, despite being beat by PS1 worldwide , its successor, Gamecube, still sold 22M next gen and most new franchises starting on N64 like Smash Bros, Mario Party or Animal Crossing grew a lot during that gen, even if the console itself sold less than N64. That wasn't the case with WiiU compared to Wii. WiiU sold almost a 1/10 of their predecessor and no franchise went to be considered better or sell better on WiiU. In respect of your use of PS2 and PS3, It benefits my point in fact. Both WiiU and PS3 had problems with its concept from the beginning but the PS3 ended selling way more than WiiU. My opinion on why??, loyal consumers satisfied with PS2 wanted more PS consoles, than Wii consumers wanted more Wii branded consoles. PS2 left a legacy for PS3 in the end in a way Wii wasn't capable for WiiU. Like you said, Wii last few years were awful software wise and it reflected in declining sales for Wii and lack of support from the masses for WiiU.

In conclussion, Nintendo home consoles, despite their succesful software sales have always been found difficulties to sell more than 50M, being Wii an aberration in the high end and WiiU in the low end. That's why Nintendo decided to go the Switch route (and why is working so good too).

3. I can't agree or disagree with your point here. Probably you're right, but we are just making opinions, and we can't prove any of our points being right.

4. I am not that sure that a Wii classic would be more succesful than a N64 classic. In this i definitively disagree with you. I think those classic console success are more based in their games than in the console itself. N64 as i stated, has way more classics than Wii in my opinion. I'm pretty sure N64 would have a better reception than Wii, but again, that's just my opinion.

5. Ok, i give you this, you surely have more knowledge than me regarding Nintendo threads here, but i have to say that i've seen similar comparisons between Wii and N64 or N64 and other consoles, and N64 always ended favorably voted compared to Wii, so that's why i said that.



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h2ohno on 06 May 2019
RolStoppable said:
colafitte said:

1. My point here was just that, Wii drop after 5-6th year was like nothing compared before, not even like N64 or GC, and definitively not like a console like SNES. According to that super interesting graph on Nintendo shipments (thanks for the info) SNES shipped 1'8M in Japan, 2'9M in USA and 800k in others, so around 5'5M total in its 6th year. SNES best year was its 3rd with 4'1M in Japan, 5'6M in USA and 2'4M in others for a total of 12'1M that year. That's basically around a 45% compared. Wii in its 3rd year summed 26M compared to 9'9M in its 6th year (based on the same graph) so around 38% compared to that year. That's already a huge difference, but SNES still sold fairly fine another 4 years more in NA, while Wii stopped production a year later worldwide. That's what i was comparing. NES, SNES, DS,... did indeed lasted way longer than Wii.

And yes, software for Wii after 2010 was horrendous indeed, but that's not a point in favor to Wii....That's why it sold so poorly in later years. The lack of the same 3rd party support Wii received its first years compared after year 5 or 6 is a clear hint of what the consumers tendecies were at the time.

2. My bad in expressing myself badly with this point. What i was trying to say is that N64 was basically replicating the success of the previous console during the first years and ended selling 67% of what SNES sold (because for whaterver reason, Japan didn't bought N64 consoles like with SNES). If it wasn't for the japanese market, N64 would've been similar in sales to SNES, so my point was that in the west N64 was not a failed console, it just looked bad compared to what Sony was doing with PS1. So, despite being beat by PS1 worldwide , its successor, Gamecube, still sold 22M next gen and most new franchises starting on N64 like Smash Bros, Mario Party or Animal Crossing grew a lot during that gen, even if the console itself sold less than N64. That wasn't the case with WiiU compared to Wii. WiiU sold almost a 1/10 of their predecessor and no franchise went to be considered better or sell better on WiiU. In respect of your use of PS2 and PS3, It benefits my point in fact. Both WiiU and PS3 had problems with its concept from the beginning but the PS3 ended selling way more than WiiU. My opinion on why??, loyal consumers satisfied with PS2 wanted more PS consoles, than Wii consumers wanted more Wii branded consoles. PS2 left a legacy for PS3 in the end in a way Wii wasn't capable for WiiU. Like you said, Wii last few years were awful software wise and it reflected in declining sales for Wii and lack of support from the masses for WiiU.

In conclussion, Nintendo home consoles, despite their succesful software sales have always been found difficulties to sell more than 50M, being Wii an aberration in the high end and WiiU in the low end. That's why Nintendo decided to go the Switch route (and why is working so good too).

(snip)

I snipped points 3-5 because I don't think that the discussion can go any further with them.

1. Looks like you rushed the numbers. Here are the same comparisons between the third and sixth fiscal year for other home consoles.

N64 - 7.9m, 500k - ~7%
GC - 5m, 700k - 14%
Wii U - The link doesn't show Wii U numbers, but we know the percentage is 0% because Wii U didn't ship any units in its sixth fiscal year.

The NES doesn't have individual numbers for its first three fiscal years in Japan and the launches in America and Europe were staggered between individual states and countries, so a proper like-for-like comparison is not possible. The DS's value exceeds 100%, but that's not the norm for consoles.

What you call a huge difference between the SNES and Wii is among the closest values you get in this kind of comparison. Personally, I don't consider such a comparison valuable due to the involved variables, but going along with your suggestion reveals that your conclusion is wrong. The Wii is most similar to the SNES; other consoles show significant differences to the Wii.

Wii's third party support has first and foremost to do with the contempt that third parties held for the console. They usually didn't want to develop quality titles, but were rather looking to cash in with quickly made games. Since consumers stopped buying the low quality games while third parties didn't want to make quality games, third party support was scaled back a lot. Consumers were definitely interested in playing Wii games, because Nintendo games sold well throughout the Wii's life. But even for Nintendo support it looked lackluster from 2011 onwards, because the 3DS launched in early 2011 and demanded Nintendo's attention, even moreso when it struggled.

Overall, it's misguided to conclude that the Wii's decline is due to a reason like fad or unwillingness by consumers to buy more, because the situation of the software pipeline provides the more logical reason that the sharply declining number of interesting game releases resulted in the declining hardware and software sales.

2. Point 3 in my previous post addressed this already. You are of the opinion that consumers should buy a brand, but I explained that Wii and Wii U aren't similar consoles despite both using the same brand.

I don't think it makes sense to put much stock into the late life support of a console and how that translates consumer confidence in a new console. The Wii U's software pipeline was woeful from start to finish and awfully bad in 2016, but none of that harmed Switch. The Wii U failed because of what it was, not because consumers were supposedly very dissatisfied with the Wii.

Nintendo decided on the Switch route in late 2013/early 2014 because both the 3DS and Wii U had run into extended software droughts due to rising development times for games. Under such circumstances it would be incredibly difficult to adequately support two separate Nintendo consoles with first party software, that's why Nintendo looked into ways to solve this problem. The other big factor is of competitive nature because at that point in time it was already clear that Sony was going to exit the handheld market; that would have left Nintendo as the only console manufacturer to support two consoles if they had continued with the same strategy. It was a decision that was equally motivated by the circumstances of the home and handheld market, because Nintendo wasn't satisfied with 3DS sales either.

Also, the Wii was outselling the Wii U throughout the first half of 2013  https://gamerant.com/wii-100-million-sales-comparison-wii-u/.  Granted, that didn't last as long as the PS2 outselling the PS3.  https://www.geek.com/games/ps2-is-outselling-ps3-and-psp-858051/

The sales data actually supports the idea that the N64 was a fad more than it does the idea that the Wii was a fad.  By March 31 1998 it had sold nearly half of its would go on to sell in its entire lifespan despite not having been out for 2 full years in any region, barely a year in PAL regions and a year and a half in the US.  It's sales were 15.22 million by March 31 out of a total of 32.92.  By contrast the Wii's sales as of March 31 2008, after a year and a half on the market everywhere, were 24.45 million, or almost one quarter of its total lifetime sales.  In its 6th fiscal year on the market it still sold nearly 10% of its total lifetime sales, while the N64 sold 1% of its lifetime sales in its sixth fiscal year.

Last edited by h2ohno - on 06 May 2019

colafitte on 06 May 2019
RolStoppable said:
colafitte said:

1. My point here was just that, Wii drop after 5-6th year was like nothing compared before, not even like N64 or GC, and definitively not like a console like SNES. According to that super interesting graph on Nintendo shipments (thanks for the info) SNES shipped 1'8M in Japan, 2'9M in USA and 800k in others, so around 5'5M total in its 6th year. SNES best year was its 3rd with 4'1M in Japan, 5'6M in USA and 2'4M in others for a total of 12'1M that year. That's basically around a 45% compared. Wii in its 3rd year summed 26M compared to 9'9M in its 6th year (based on the same graph) so around 38% compared to that year. That's already a huge difference, but SNES still sold fairly fine another 4 years more in NA, while Wii stopped production a year later worldwide. That's what i was comparing. NES, SNES, DS,... did indeed lasted way longer than Wii.

And yes, software for Wii after 2010 was horrendous indeed, but that's not a point in favor to Wii....That's why it sold so poorly in later years. The lack of the same 3rd party support Wii received its first years compared after year 5 or 6 is a clear hint of what the consumers tendecies were at the time.

2. My bad in expressing myself badly with this point. What i was trying to say is that N64 was basically replicating the success of the previous console during the first years and ended selling 67% of what SNES sold (because for whaterver reason, Japan didn't bought N64 consoles like with SNES). If it wasn't for the japanese market, N64 would've been similar in sales to SNES, so my point was that in the west N64 was not a failed console, it just looked bad compared to what Sony was doing with PS1. So, despite being beat by PS1 worldwide , its successor, Gamecube, still sold 22M next gen and most new franchises starting on N64 like Smash Bros, Mario Party or Animal Crossing grew a lot during that gen, even if the console itself sold less than N64. That wasn't the case with WiiU compared to Wii. WiiU sold almost a 1/10 of their predecessor and no franchise went to be considered better or sell better on WiiU. In respect of your use of PS2 and PS3, It benefits my point in fact. Both WiiU and PS3 had problems with its concept from the beginning but the PS3 ended selling way more than WiiU. My opinion on why??, loyal consumers satisfied with PS2 wanted more PS consoles, than Wii consumers wanted more Wii branded consoles. PS2 left a legacy for PS3 in the end in a way Wii wasn't capable for WiiU. Like you said, Wii last few years were awful software wise and it reflected in declining sales for Wii and lack of support from the masses for WiiU.

In conclussion, Nintendo home consoles, despite their succesful software sales have always been found difficulties to sell more than 50M, being Wii an aberration in the high end and WiiU in the low end. That's why Nintendo decided to go the Switch route (and why is working so good too).

(snip)

I snipped points 3-5 because I don't think that the discussion can go any further with them.

1. Looks like you rushed the numbers. Here are the same comparisons between the third and sixth fiscal year for other home consoles.

N64 - 7.9m, 500k - ~7%
GC - 5m, 700k - 14%
Wii U - The link doesn't show Wii U numbers, but we know the percentage is 0% because Wii U didn't ship any units in its sixth fiscal year.

The NES doesn't have individual numbers for its first three fiscal years in Japan and the launches in America and Europe were staggered between individual states and countries, so a proper like-for-like comparison is not possible. The DS's value exceeds 100%, but that's not the norm for consoles.

What you call a huge difference between the SNES and Wii is among the closest values you get in this kind of comparison. Personally, I don't consider such a comparison valuable due to the involved variables, but going along with your suggestion reveals that your conclusion is wrong. The Wii is most similar to the SNES; other consoles show significant differences to the Wii.

Wii's third party support has first and foremost to do with the contempt that third parties held for the console. They usually didn't want to develop quality titles, but were rather looking to cash in with quickly made games. Since consumers stopped buying the low quality games while third parties didn't want to make quality games, third party support was scaled back a lot. Consumers were definitely interested in playing Wii games, because Nintendo games sold well throughout the Wii's life. But even for Nintendo support it looked lackluster from 2011 onwards, because the 3DS launched in early 2011 and demanded Nintendo's attention, even moreso when it struggled.

Overall, it's misguided to conclude that the Wii's decline is due to a reason like fad or unwillingness by consumers to buy more, because the situation of the software pipeline provides the more logical reason that the sharply declining number of interesting game releases resulted in the declining hardware and software sales.

2. Point 3 in my previous post addressed this already. You are of the opinion that consumers should buy a brand, but I explained that Wii and Wii U aren't similar consoles despite both using the same brand.

I don't think it makes sense to put much stock into the late life support of a console and how that translates consumer confidence in a new console. The Wii U's software pipeline was woeful from start to finish and awfully bad in 2016, but none of that harmed Switch. The Wii U failed because of what it was, not because consumers were supposedly very dissatisfied with the Wii.

Nintendo decided on the Switch route in late 2013/early 2014 because both the 3DS and Wii U had run into extended software droughts due to rising development times for games. Under such circumstances it would be incredibly difficult to adequately support two separate Nintendo consoles with first party software, that's why Nintendo looked into ways to solve this problem. The other big factor is of competitive nature because at that point in time it was already clear that Sony was going to exit the handheld market; that would have left Nintendo as the only console manufacturer to support two consoles if they had continued with the same strategy. It was a decision that was equally motivated by the circumstances of the home and handheld market, because Nintendo wasn't satisfied with 3DS sales either.

Wii is more similar to SNES in year 6 than N64 or GC. Ok, but Wii still didn't last as much as SNES or NES. That was always my point. You will always said it droped so much because if was intentional because reasons you say and i will always say it happened because Wii in 2011 was not a compelling console anymore. Zelda Skyward Sword, one of the most hyped games ever launched at the end of 2011 with critical aclaim and despite the huge install base of the Wii it was incapable of being a comercial success like Twilight Pricess. Why?? Was because the game in itself was bad??, or was because people didn't liked to use nunchuks anymore??, or because the game looked aged in 2011??, What was the reason?.

And a fad, to me....because i don't know how to express myself any better, it's something that is VEEEEEERY HUGE (way more popular item against direct competion or something so new that creates a new market in itself), and then in a year or two, even 3 if you want....a variable period of time, then...poof is not the most popular anymore. Examples: Singstar, EyeToy, Kinect (KING OF FADS), Guitar Hero, Just Dance...3D gaming hype didn't even last the launch of the hardware..... Wii Nunchuks style of gaming was IN MY OPINION, in the same category of those fads. That doesn't mean that Wii didn't had a big library and some very good games, but the reason why Wii sold muuuuuuch more than N64 and GC was not because it had 3x bigger or better library of games. That was always my point, and you can take it or not. The fact that Nintendo decided that they could not compete with a home console only anymore with the launch of the Switch was the confirmation i needed. The market for console+handhled  shrinked last gen for Nintendo, not because of Sony, not even for smartphones or tablets. It was because Nintendo could not mantain the level of success of the Wii in the home console market (hardware becoming too expensive to compete against Sony and Microsoft, lack of 3rd party support, ...whatever the reason). DS did bonkers and 3DS did really fine, so Nintendo realised there was only one solution possible to maximize success: a Hybrid console (or a superpowerful handheld depending on the person). We are in 2019, and i've made my mind about the reasons of the Wii success for a decade, so i won't change my opinion now. Anyone can have their own theory. I respect yours and i accept some things you said, but the main reasons are still intact in my mind.

I appreciate your points but i think we both agree we have to stop here. As always a pleasure to discuss things this way.

In my mind the best Nintendo home consoles based on software are in this order: SNES>N64>GC>Switch>Wii>WiiU>NES, So that's why i defended N64, I honestly think it was a better console relatively to its time if we only talk about the games.



2zosteven on 06 May 2019

64!

OOT

SM64

goldeneye

doom64



steve

GoOnKid on 06 May 2019

colafitte said:

Wii is more similar to SNES in year 6 than N64 or GC. Ok, but Wii still didn't last as much as SNES or NES. That was always my point. You will always said it droped so much because if was intentional because reasons you say and i will always say it happened because Wii in 2011 was not a compelling console anymore. Zelda Skyward Sword, one of the most hyped games ever launched at the end of 2011 with critical aclaim and despite the huge install base of the Wii it was incapable of being a comercial success like Twilight Pricess. Why?? Was because the game in itself was bad??, or was because people didn't liked to use nunchuks anymore??, or because the game looked aged in 2011??, What was the reason?.

And a fad, to me....because i don't know how to express myself any better, it's something that is VEEEEEERY HUGE (way more popular item against direct competion or something so new that creates a new market in itself), and then in a year or two, even 3 if you want....a variable period of time, then...poof is not the most popular anymore. Examples: Singstar, EyeToy, Kinect (KING OF FADS), Guitar Hero, Just Dance...3D gaming hype didn't even last the launch of the hardware..... Wii Nunchuks style of gaming was IN MY OPINION, in the same category of those fads. That doesn't mean that Wii didn't had a big library and some very good games, but the reason why Wii sold muuuuuuch more than N64 and GC was not because it had 3x bigger or better library of games. That was always my point, and you can take it or not. The fact that Nintendo decided that they could not compete with a home console only anymore with the launch of the Switch was the confirmation i needed. The market for console+handhled  shrinked last gen for Nintendo, not because of Sony, not even for smartphones or tablets. It was because Nintendo could not mantain the level of success of the Wii in the home console market (hardware becoming too expensive to compete against Sony and Microsoft, lack of 3rd party support, ...whatever the reason). DS did bonkers and 3DS did really fine, so Nintendo realised there was only one solution possible to maximize success: a Hybrid console (or a superpowerful handheld depending on the person). We are in 2019, and i've made my mind about the reasons of the Wii success for a decade, so i won't change my opinion now. Anyone can have their own theory. I respect yours and i accept some things you said, but the main reasons are still intact in my mind.

I appreciate your points but i think we both agree we have to stop here. As always a pleasure to discuss things this way.

In my mind the best Nintendo home consoles based on software are in this order: SNES>N64>GC>Switch>Wii>WiiU>NES, So that's why i defended N64, I honestly think it was a better console relatively to its time if we only talk about the games.



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Lryu222 on 06 May 2019

The only thing that strikes me in the N64 is OoT and Banjo. I'll go with the Wii.



h2ohno on 06 May 2019
RolStoppable said:
colafitte said:

Wii is more similar to SNES in year 6 than N64 or GC. Ok, but Wii still didn't last as much as SNES or NES. That was always my point. You will always said it droped so much because if was intentional because reasons you say and i will always say it happened because Wii in 2011 was not a compelling console anymore. Zelda Skyward Sword, one of the most hyped games ever launched at the end of 2011 with critical aclaim and despite the huge install base of the Wii it was incapable of being a comercial success like Twilight Pricess. Why?? Was because the game in itself was bad??, or was because people didn't liked to use nunchuks anymore??, or because the game looked aged in 2011??, What was the reason?.

And a fad, to me....because i don't know how to express myself any better, it's something that is VEEEEEERY HUGE (way more popular item against direct competion or something so new that creates a new market in itself), and then in a year or two, even 3 if you want....a variable period of time, then...poof is not the most popular anymore. Examples: Singstar, EyeToy, Kinect (KING OF FADS), Guitar Hero, Just Dance...3D gaming hype didn't even last the launch of the hardware..... Wii Nunchuks style of gaming was IN MY OPINION, in the same category of those fads. That doesn't mean that Wii didn't had a big library and some very good games, but the reason why Wii sold muuuuuuch more than N64 and GC was not because it had 3x bigger or better library of games. That was always my point, and you can take it or not. The fact that Nintendo decided that they could not compete with a home console only anymore with the launch of the Switch was the confirmation i needed. The market for console+handhled  shrinked last gen for Nintendo, not because of Sony, not even for smartphones or tablets. It was because Nintendo could not mantain the level of success of the Wii in the home console market (hardware becoming too expensive to compete against Sony and Microsoft, lack of 3rd party support, ...whatever the reason). DS did bonkers and 3DS did really fine, so Nintendo realised there was only one solution possible to maximize success: a Hybrid console (or a superpowerful handheld depending on the person). We are in 2019, and i've made my mind about the reasons of the Wii success for a decade, so i won't change my opinion now. Anyone can have their own theory. I respect yours and i accept some things you said, but the main reasons are still intact in my mind.

I appreciate your points but i think we both agree we have to stop here. As always a pleasure to discuss things this way.

In my mind the best Nintendo home consoles based on software are in this order: SNES>N64>GC>Switch>Wii>WiiU>NES, So that's why i defended N64, I honestly think it was a better console relatively to its time if we only talk about the games.

If you look at the NeoGAF thread with the shipment data again, the SNES and Wii both lasted the same time. Shipments in their eighth fiscal year became negligible, about ~1.5m each. I hope you noticed that the Wii data isn't complete because the thread was created before the Wii was discontinued.

I'd call Skyward Sword a bad Zelda game. And after Breath of the Wild, even most of those who defended Skyward Sword for years have come around to adjust their opinions of SS. Much of Wii's success was based on getting back to the basics, i.e. doing what made Nintendo big in the first place with the NES. If you browse the bestsellers list of the NES, you will notice that simple sports games like Golf and Tennis have sold quite a lot of copies; the modern version of those games was Wii Sports. Wii Play modernized games like Pong, Duck Hunt and Combat. New Super Mario Bros. Wii was the first new 2D Mario game on a home console since 1990's Super Mario World.

Skyward Sword missed the mark spectacularly because it is the most linear Zelda game whereas the original Zelda on the NES offered an open world to explore. If you wonder about Breath of the Wild's success, Nintendo's developers created a prototype of BotW with NES graphics and really used the original Zelda game as their inspiration. SS and BotW have a difference like night and day, and that means that SS won't sell big numbers on any console because it doesn't meet the expectations that the market at large has towards a Zelda game.

Your huge paragraph contains a lot of rambling, but it also provides the explanation for it. You've made up your mind and you aren't going to change it. The only thing I want to touch on is that the 3DS did not really fine because it caused Nintendo's first loss in a full financial year since they had started making video games.

Nope. Skyward Sword is still my favorite Zelda, with BOTW being a distant second.  I'll defend and praise SS all day long.



Keybladewielder on 06 May 2019

I love Skyward Sword and I'm sure playing Breath of the Wild won't make me like it any less.



Wyrdness on 06 May 2019
curl-6 said:
colafitte said:

In relation of its time, N64 games had way more impact in the industry and Nintendo itself, thanks to 3D gaming and a lot of new ideas. Basically every Mario 3D, Zelda, Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros, Mario Party, ... has been based for 20 years on thosee games that came on N64.

On the other hand, Wii had more games and more variety, but neither of its games, despite being absolutely more modern and polished were as memorable or surpassed the impact of any of the N64 ones. The fact that people got tired quickly of motion controls is another reason against Wii.

In my opinion N64, was the last time Nintendo tried to make revolutionary games that shooked the industry and made every other developers try to catch them or imitate what they were doing until Zelda BOTW came, impacting the industry again. Nintendo was only looking at the past until then instead of looking at the future.... so that's why my vote goes to N64, despite Wii games being more playable by today standars.

This poll shows too, that even for Nintendo fans and its loyal fanbase, if N64 wins or it's even tied with Wii, it proves that Wii was basically a fad. If half people now prefer a console that barely sold 30m against one that sold more then 3x more..., then it proves that the kind of people that bought that console were not there for N64 and were not for WiiU later either. People seems to remember more fondly what they played on N64 than on Wii, but i don't know, maybe it's just nostalgia....

The former is not a "fact" and the latter "proves" no such thing.

The Wii lasted for a normal Nintendo console lifespan. It is no more a "fad" than any other system that lasted 5-6 years. The idea that "people quickly got tired of motion controls" is not supported by the evidence either. We are more than 12 years passed the release of the Wii now and motion controls are alive and well and here to stay. If they were a fad they'd be long gone by now, yet they are featuring in basically every major Switch game.

Especially when you consider even Media Molecules' upcoming PS4 project uses MC.



colafitte on 06 May 2019
RolStoppable said:

If you look at the NeoGAF thread with the shipment data again, the SNES and Wii both lasted the same time. Shipments in their eighth fiscal year became negligible, about ~1.5m each. I hope you noticed that the Wii data isn't complete because the thread was created before the Wii was discontinued.

I'd call Skyward Sword a bad Zelda game. And after Breath of the Wild, even most of those who defended Skyward Sword for years have come around to adjust their opinions of SS. Much of Wii's success was based on getting back to the basics, i.e. doing what made Nintendo big in the first place with the NES. If you browse the bestsellers list of the NES, you will notice that simple sports games like Golf and Tennis have sold quite a lot of copies; the modern version of those games was Wii Sports. Wii Play modernized games like Pong, Duck Hunt and Combat. New Super Mario Bros. Wii was the first new 2D Mario game on a home console since 1990's Super Mario World.

Skyward Sword missed the mark spectacularly because it is the most linear Zelda game whereas the original Zelda on the NES offered an open world to explore. If you wonder about Breath of the Wild's success, Nintendo's developers created a prototype of BotW with NES graphics and really used the original Zelda game as their inspiration. SS and BotW have a difference like night and day, and that means that SS won't sell big numbers on any console because it doesn't meet the expectations that the market at large has towards a Zelda game.

Your huge paragraph contains a lot of rambling, but it also provides the explanation for it. You've made up your mind and you aren't going to change it. The only thing I want to touch on is that the 3DS did not really fine because it caused Nintendo's first loss in a full financial year since they had started making video games.

SNES lasted since 1990 to 1999 according to that data, Wii didn't last that much. But i guess, i am not going to get you to understand my point. The point was basically the decline Wii suffered in question of 2-3 years that no console has ever suffered at the same degree. Every console basically declines at some point, Nintendo consoles usually decline at the same time, PS consoles last longer, X360 lasted even longer than PS3. But even between Nintendo consoles, no console went to sell more than 20M to 5M in a matter of 3 years (using VGC numbers). It was just an anecdotal data, a curiousity, i wasn't trying to convince anybody, but it was just a number. I wasn't trying to figure out the reasons why it happened. It just happened. One day it was the hottest item in gaming and the other day is was not. Just that.

As for Skyward Sword. I liked a lot the visual artstyle, but everything else was a drag. It's one of the games that i consider overrated just because of the name of the franchise. It was not a bad game, but no a 90+ game either. BOTW was what the Zelda franchise needed...for years. It still not perfect in my opinion, but it was in the right direction nonetheless.

I get your point on Wii going back to basics, but i don't agree on that as much because it was N64 the console who started the modern Mario Golfs, Mario Tennis, Mario Partys, ...Wii Sports and Wii Play were just the same concept only this time with motion controls. And 2D Mario, yes, but it came in 2009, when Wii was already phenomenon everywhere, hardly the reason of why Wii had sold so much until then. I'll admit it helped the Wii to keep selling a lot though.

And that paragraph was not rambling. It was a polite way to say that your arguments do not convince me to change my opinion. But i guess this site can't accept other opinions. "You are with me or against me" mentality. I think a lot what i say here, and of course i won't change my opinion here just because an argument in a afternoon. Who i am, like Ross when Phoebe forces him to admit maybe he was wrong in his ideals??. I thought the same in 2009 (when i didn't understood then why Wii was selling so much), i thought the same in 2012 when WiiU launched, and i still think the same in 2019. I don't expect you changing your opinion either. Let's accept we are on different points of view, and let's finish it here, in good terms.