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jason1637 said:
CaptainExplosion said:

Trump is doing nothing, I repeat NOTHING, to make the situation better. Instead he's sending out his ICE thugs to go on raids so he can cram more migrants into his concentration camps.

He could definitely do a better job but he has taken steps to try to amend the issues. The stay in mexico policy prevents even more overcrowding in detention centers. Also after the tariff threat Mexico has increased their border security in their southern and northern border and border crossings have decreased. Also there's the $4.6 billion aid bill which should give more resources to detention centers. A lot more than be done but saying nothing has been done is just wrong.

The Stay in Mexico policy simply kicks the can to someone else who is also woefully unprepared to handle the situation. It doesn't really help so much as shift some of the blame to someone else. No one is really better off but at least Trump can kind of say "Look, its not totally my fault!" even though the Stay in Mexico policy is in itself his fault so that's a bit of a strange defense on that one...

Like there is a reason why the United States doesn't consider Mexico a Safe Third Country (despite Trump's willingness to change this). The Stay in Mexico policy is just a half assed version of something pretty much every advocate for immigrants say is not a good thing.



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sundin13 said:
jason1637 said:

He could definitely do a better job but he has taken steps to try to amend the issues. The stay in mexico policy prevents even more overcrowding in detention centers. Also after the tariff threat Mexico has increased their border security in their southern and northern border and border crossings have decreased. Also there's the $4.6 billion aid bill which should give more resources to detention centers. A lot more than be done but saying nothing has been done is just wrong.

The Stay in Mexico policy simply kicks the can to someone else who is also woefully unprepared to handle the situation. It doesn't really help so much as shift some of the blame to someone else. No one is really better off but at least Trump can kind of say "Look, its not totally my fault!" even though the Stay in Mexico policy is in itself his fault so that's a bit of a strange defense on that one...

Like there is a reason why the United States doesn't consider Mexico a Safe Third Country (despite Trump's willingness to change this). The Stay in Mexico policy is just a half assed version of something pretty much every advocate for immigrants say is not a good thing.

Yeah the stay in Mexico policy sucks for Mexico but at this time there's literally almost no space to hold people coming in now in our centers. If there were no stay in Mexico policy overcrowding would be much worse. 



jason1637 said:
sundin13 said:

The Stay in Mexico policy simply kicks the can to someone else who is also woefully unprepared to handle the situation. It doesn't really help so much as shift some of the blame to someone else. No one is really better off but at least Trump can kind of say "Look, its not totally my fault!" even though the Stay in Mexico policy is in itself his fault so that's a bit of a strange defense on that one...

Like there is a reason why the United States doesn't consider Mexico a Safe Third Country (despite Trump's willingness to change this). The Stay in Mexico policy is just a half assed version of something pretty much every advocate for immigrants say is not a good thing.

Yeah the stay in Mexico policy sucks for Mexico but at this time there's literally almost no space to hold people coming in now in our centers. If there were no stay in Mexico policy overcrowding would be much worse. 

I'm not talking about Mexico, I'm talking about immigrants and asylum seekers.

That said, the primary reason that overcrowding is a problem is because of Trump's own policies to hold these individuals in detention.



sundin13 said:
jason1637 said:

Yeah the stay in Mexico policy sucks for Mexico but at this time there's literally almost no space to hold people coming in now in our centers. If there were no stay in Mexico policy overcrowding would be much worse. 

I'm not talking about Mexico, I'm talking about immigrants and asylum seekers.

That said, the primary reason that overcrowding is a problem is because of Trump's own policies to hold these individuals in detention.

Were immigrants crossing the border not held in detention centers before Trump?

Last edited by jason1637 - on 13 July 2019

Can't Americans just be happy with their privilege of never being inconvenienced in any way and never having to give to be able to take? I mean, just imagine going to a console launch and having to actually wait in line out in the weather, and then being asked for money you had to save up before you leave with it. Even worse, being told they're sold out and you'll have to come back and wait again. Treating outsiders like this is sickening. To think the paradise they left to come to America and now having to deal with this. You'd almost think most would pack up and go back home after dealing with this sorry excuse of so called 'freedom'.



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jason1637 said:
sundin13 said:

I'm not talking about Mexico, I'm talking about immigrants and asylum seekers.

That said, the primary reason that overcrowding is a problem is because of Trump's own policies to hold these individuals in detention.

Were immigrants crossing the border not held in detention centers before Trump?

There is variation in regards to a number of different factors including who was crossing the border and when we are talking about, but the alternative would be releasing the individuals on bond and ordering them to appear for their day in court, similar to how many lower criminal offenses are handled within the United States. As for what has changed, to name one example, recently, Barr (aka Chief Shill) issued a decision ordering Immigration Judges to not release asylum seekers on bond after they have demonstrated a credible threat, forcing more people to stay detained when they would have previously been released on bond.



sundin13 said:
jason1637 said:

Were immigrants crossing the border not held in detention centers before Trump?

There is variation in regards to a number of different factors including who was crossing the border and when we are talking about, but the alternative would be releasing the individuals on bond and ordering them to appear for their day in court, similar to how many lower criminal offenses are handled within the United States. As for what has changed, to name one example, recently, Barr (aka Chief Shill) issued a decision ordering Immigration Judges to not release asylum seekers on bond after they have demonstrated a credible threat, forcing more people to stay detained when they would have previously been released on bond.

Isn't it better for them to stay detained if they are deemed to be a threat? Also iirc there was an issue with people not showing up for their court dates.



jason1637 said:
sundin13 said:

There is variation in regards to a number of different factors including who was crossing the border and when we are talking about, but the alternative would be releasing the individuals on bond and ordering them to appear for their day in court, similar to how many lower criminal offenses are handled within the United States. As for what has changed, to name one example, recently, Barr (aka Chief Shill) issued a decision ordering Immigration Judges to not release asylum seekers on bond after they have demonstrated a credible threat, forcing more people to stay detained when they would have previously been released on bond.

Isn't it better for them to stay detained if they are deemed to be a threat? Also iirc there was an issue with people not showing up for their court dates.

You added a little extra provision in there, you sneaky devil.

Obviously if they are deemed to be a threat they should often be denied bond. Typically threat assessment and flight risk are the main things factored in when deciding bond. However, this order does not simply apply to those who are deemed a threat, it applies to everyone by default.

As for your recollection, data indicates about 90% of asylum seekers show up for their court dates. Obviously that number is already quite good, however at the core of most of these issues is trust. Immigrant behavior is largely dictated by trust. Immigrants will often come forward, pay taxes, report victimizations to the authorities, etc if they trust that the government will treat them fairly. Trump's policies I would argue have severely degraded trust in immigrants which has the exact opposite effect of the societally desired outcomes. If we want individuals to show up for court hearings, mistreating them, throwing them in prison and depriving them of human rights is a pretty bad way to get that done.



Foolish AOC, saving New York billions in corporate welfare.



jason1637 said:
sundin13 said:

So deprivation of human rights/needs is a totally cool thing to do to asylum seekers? Yes, these people are going to the government to seek asylum but that does not mean they are looking to be locked up and abused. There are other ways to handle this which don't involve human rights violations...

None is saying it's a cool thing to do. Yeah there are other ways to handle it that have been implemented over the last few months. The detention centers werent made to hold this large amount of people crossing the border so resources and space is scarce.

Actually, they were originally planned to. After all, the immigration from central and south america dropped of a lot after the 90's and we're still far from those levels in the US.

However, the budgets of customs, border patrols and the like kept getting axed, sometimes in favor of walls, fences and the like. In other words, the detention centers should be large enough, just hadn't been financed enough to equip them anywhere close to properly.