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sundin13 said:
Dulfite said:

That's what is so bizarre to me. The people that control most western media are leftists, who are very pro LGTBQ and feminism (which are increasingly not aligned already, as feminists are against males identifying as women to steal their opportunities/invade their privacy), and these media companies are trying to bury atrocities being committed by certain nations that have a history of non-tolerance towards LGTBQ and feminists.

This left coalition of LGBTQ+, feminists, Muslims, and communists makes absolutely no sense and, in the end, they will all realize it. If the left wasn't so concerned with conservatives who they believe are persecuting them, they would realize they are aligning themselves with groups that are far more likely to make their lives miserable (Sharia muslims and Chinese communists) than conservatives ever could. They are trying to elimate a group who verbally criticizes them and doing so by aligning with groups that physically kill those that oppose their mindsets, oftentimes in the cruelest ways imaginable. 

Also, regarding Chinas position versus USSR's, while I agree they are in a more influential and globally powerful position, that does come with a catch. All that international trading has lead to a lot of debt being owed to China from western nations. But nations aren't inclined to pay up on their debts when being attacked or fighting proxy wars. So, if China wants to sustain its cashflow coming into it, they can't really start anything major. Combine that with the fact that in the next couple decades they are going to have a massive population decline due to decisions that have been made in recent decades and their economic situation is even more fragile. USSR was used to being on its own with the resources it had, China is very used to money coming in from all over the world.

Your view of the left is pretty hilarious. It feels like an alien trying to describe human culture. 

To be fair the view of the right in this thread is pretty skewed too. Ascribing the attributes of of the fringes to the whole is rarely going to paint an accurate picture.  I'd expect you to also call that out when it is applied to the right ... but will you?



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Dulfite said:
sundin13 said:

Your view of the left is pretty hilarious. It feels like an alien trying to describe human culture. 

How so? Are you suggesting muslim Americans, feminists, and LGBTQ+ aren't mostly on the left? Or are you suggesting each of those subgroups goals aren't, long-term, contradictory, like I suggest?

First: Media

Western media isn't full of leftists. Leftists are relatively rare in the Democratic party and just as rare in the mainstream media. Most of both of these groups tend to be in the political center, drifting towards center-left in some areas. This is a far cry from Leftism, which (as you may assume from the name) is to the left, not the center.

Second: Feminism

Most feminists on the left support trans rights. The ones that do not are often criticized by the left for their beliefs. Your TERFy implication that trans women are evil schemers out to destroy women is gross, and certainly not accepted among leftists. So, yeah, I'd say your view of feminism on the left is pretty broken. Women's rights and trans rights are not mutually exclusive, so holding both a concern for women's rights and trans rights is not contradictory.

Third: Muslims

It is interesting how you talk about "Sharia Muslims" in your first post, but pivot to "Muslim Americans" in your second as if they are the same thing. This feels like the type of Fox News brand bigotry that pushes the idea that Muslim Americans are seeking to take over and institute Sharia law, when in reality Muslim Americans on the left tend to unsurprisingly have views which more closely align with the left. As such, there is no contradiction between support for Muslim Americans and the other principles of the left.

Fourth: China

The majority of the left opposes the actions of China and gladly criticizes them on their human rights record as well as their actions with regards to Hong Kong and Taiwan. 

You seem to just be taking one small group and extrapolating it to cover the entirety of the left, which is never a particularly good way of forming an opinion...



sundin13 said:
Dulfite said:

How so? Are you suggesting muslim Americans, feminists, and LGBTQ+ aren't mostly on the left? Or are you suggesting each of those subgroups goals aren't, long-term, contradictory, like I suggest?

First: Media

Western media isn't full of leftists. Leftists are relatively rare in the Democratic party and just as rare in the mainstream media. Most of both of these groups tend to be in the political center, drifting towards center-left in some areas. This is a far cry from Leftism, which (as you may assume from the name) is to the left, not the center.

Second: Feminism

Most feminists on the left support trans rights. The ones that do not are often criticized by the left for their beliefs. Your TERFy implication that trans women are evil schemers out to destroy women is gross, and certainly not accepted among leftists. So, yeah, I'd say your view of feminism on the left is pretty broken. Women's rights and trans rights are not mutually exclusive, so holding both a concern for women's rights and trans rights is not contradictory.

Third: Muslims

It is interesting how you talk about "Sharia Muslims" in your first post, but pivot to "Muslim Americans" in your second as if they are the same thing. This feels like the type of Fox News brand bigotry that pushes the idea that Muslim Americans are seeking to take over and institute Sharia law, when in reality Muslim Americans on the left tend to unsurprisingly have views which more closely align with the left. As such, there is no contradiction between support for Muslim Americans and the other principles of the left.

Fourth: China

The majority of the left opposes the actions of China and gladly criticizes them on their human rights record as well as their actions with regards to Hong Kong and Taiwan. 

You seem to just be taking one small group and extrapolating it to cover the entirety of the left, which is never a particularly good way of forming an opinion...

Yeah @Dulfite in this thread you have to be left-center and aiming at the right to get away with doing that.  Then most that frequent this thread will agree with you.



The_Yoda said:

Yeah @Dulfite in this thread you have to be left-center and aiming at the right to get away with doing that.  Then most that frequent this thread will agree with you.

Feel free to call out anyone you disagree with. 

The only thing I can speak for is myself, and I haven't exactly been shy about criticizing people on the left.



sundin13 said:

First: Media

Western media isn't full of leftists. Leftists are relatively rare in the Democratic party and just as rare in the mainstream media. Most of both of these groups tend to be in the political center, drifting towards center-left in some areas. This is a far cry from Leftism, which (as you may assume from the name) is to the left, not the center.

The Corporate "moderate" Democratics in most western countries would be at the Right of politics, being at the "Centre" in the US is a relative term as the US political culture is right leaning 

From other advanced western countries political perspective "centralists" would be the Progressive Democrats as most of their policies are already accepted and implement in most other advanced western countries and are widely accepted in these countries as normal and long standing     



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Dulfite said:
KratosLives said:

i just wonder the reason why bush went there and stayed. Does afghan have oil?

Ah that conspiracy theory. No, we went there to fight the terrorists that orchestrated 9/11 and when you do that you either:

a) blow stuff up and leave. Then the children of the people you blew up grow up to avenge those we killed so they attack us again, causing the cycle to repeat over and over.

or

b) invade and try to build a better nation.

We chose option b, but when polling data indicates the people there have no desire to become westernized, there is really little you can do. If they want to have a society where women are abused/neglected, where people can be stoned to death, and where young boys are brainwashed into adulthood to kill others/themselves so they can have rewards in Heaven, there isn't really anything our military can do other than secure our own borders so they can't come here to kill us. The only thing that can change things is 1:1 talks, heart to heart, to persuade them.

Regardless, I don't think the Afghans are going to get what they want. As soon as we 100% out of there, China is going to become the new police dog over there and they don't have nearly the restraint the west has. China doesn't care about conventions on how to handle enemies. Ask the Uyghurs. Ask Taiwan. Ask Hong Kong. Ask the Philippines. Ask South Korea. China wants Asia, whether through direct control or proxy control, just like the Soviet Union used to have so many proxy nations under its belt. We are heading towards Cold War 2. Hopefully, it stops at a cold war and doesn't become a world war. Right now, for Asia, it is:

The West + Australia + Asian nations of Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and India vs. China, Russia, North Korea. If China can get Afghanistan on board, and eventually Pakistan, and perhaps the whole Southwestern Asian branch (Middle East), that will tip the scales in their favor.

Yeah, you chose option B, which was the good option... but had no clue and no plan whatsoever as to how to do so.

A friend of mine is Afghan and came to the country 14 years ago. His parents had a poppies farm (so basically an opium farm) and when the Americans came, they told them that this was wrong and burned the fields. The problem is that right after taking the seeds and burning the fields, they left without any compensation or giving the family any other means to survive, like seeds to grow some foodstuffs. You can't just go around destroying existences and expect people to be happy about it.

The country didn't get industrialized or otherwise developed, so there was little perspective for Afghans. The US reinstated the regents who had been ousted by the Talibans 40 years ago due to deep-running corruption and general ineptitude, and they proved they didn't learn much in all these years since.

Troop training was also done in a disastrous way. There were many volunteers who wanted to get trained to protect family and fatherland - and those got generally sent to the other corner of the country, far away from their loved ones, with corrupt armchair generals "leading" them by placing them somewhere and be done with. The collapse in the last weeks was mostly due to those soldiers choosing to rather go defend their families than to defend the country who did seemingly everything to push them away. A bit more oversight on what happens to the recruits past basic training would have done wonders in preventing the collapse.

Long story short, this was entirely preventable. But Bush had no plans past beating the Taliban, Obama didn't care enough to up the ante here, Trump just wanted to pull out and Biden finally did. If any of them had cared more and handled it just slightly better, we wouldn't be at the situation we are now.



The_Yoda said:
sundin13 said:

First: Media

Western media isn't full of leftists. Leftists are relatively rare in the Democratic party and just as rare in the mainstream media. Most of both of these groups tend to be in the political center, drifting towards center-left in some areas. This is a far cry from Leftism, which (as you may assume from the name) is to the left, not the center.

Second: Feminism

Most feminists on the left support trans rights. The ones that do not are often criticized by the left for their beliefs. Your TERFy implication that trans women are evil schemers out to destroy women is gross, and certainly not accepted among leftists. So, yeah, I'd say your view of feminism on the left is pretty broken. Women's rights and trans rights are not mutually exclusive, so holding both a concern for women's rights and trans rights is not contradictory.

Third: Muslims

It is interesting how you talk about "Sharia Muslims" in your first post, but pivot to "Muslim Americans" in your second as if they are the same thing. This feels like the type of Fox News brand bigotry that pushes the idea that Muslim Americans are seeking to take over and institute Sharia law, when in reality Muslim Americans on the left tend to unsurprisingly have views which more closely align with the left. As such, there is no contradiction between support for Muslim Americans and the other principles of the left.

Fourth: China

The majority of the left opposes the actions of China and gladly criticizes them on their human rights record as well as their actions with regards to Hong Kong and Taiwan. 

You seem to just be taking one small group and extrapolating it to cover the entirety of the left, which is never a particularly good way of forming an opinion...

Yeah @Dulfite in this thread you have to be left-center and aiming at the right to get away with doing that.  Then most that frequent this thread will agree with you.

Basically its what we see in the media.  Painting the whole group based on the fringe which keeps both sides nice and happy that their thoughts about each side is based on the extreme.  This tactic is as old as time and never gets old or outdated.



sundin13 said:
Dulfite said:

That's what is so bizarre to me. The people that control most western media are leftists, who are very pro LGTBQ and feminism (which are increasingly not aligned already, as feminists are against males identifying as women to steal their opportunities/invade their privacy), and these media companies are trying to bury atrocities being committed by certain nations that have a history of non-tolerance towards LGTBQ and feminists.

This left coalition of LGBTQ+, feminists, Muslims, and communists makes absolutely no sense and, in the end, they will all realize it. If the left wasn't so concerned with conservatives who they believe are persecuting them, they would realize they are aligning themselves with groups that are far more likely to make their lives miserable (Sharia muslims and Chinese communists) than conservatives ever could. They are trying to elimate a group who verbally criticizes them and doing so by aligning with groups that physically kill those that oppose their mindsets, oftentimes in the cruelest ways imaginable. 

Also, regarding Chinas position versus USSR's, while I agree they are in a more influential and globally powerful position, that does come with a catch. All that international trading has lead to a lot of debt being owed to China from western nations. But nations aren't inclined to pay up on their debts when being attacked or fighting proxy wars. So, if China wants to sustain its cashflow coming into it, they can't really start anything major. Combine that with the fact that in the next couple decades they are going to have a massive population decline due to decisions that have been made in recent decades and their economic situation is even more fragile. USSR was used to being on its own with the resources it had, China is very used to money coming in from all over the world.

Your view of the left is pretty hilarious. It feels like an alien trying to describe human culture. 

You should see how the left look describe the right then... not much different. Maybe even worse.



EnricoPallazzo said:
sundin13 said:

Your view of the left is pretty hilarious. It feels like an alien trying to describe human culture. 

You should see how the left look describe the right then... not much different. Maybe even worse.

Any examples you could provide us or point to?



Bofferbrauer2 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

You should see how the left look describe the right then... not much different. Maybe even worse.

Any examples you could provide us or point to?

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9314471

Now to be fair this is a CaptainExplosion post but a couple others seemed to agree with the sentiment that "3 republican governors (out of 27) and a gubernatorial candidate taking a stance against mask mandates" = Republicans are trying to kill as many children as possible. I suppose they could have disagreed and just didn't want to argue the point with him while also engaging him on the subject. I've just seen the "it's just hyperbole" argument made by those that lean American Left way more times than by the American Right leaning when defending having said terrible things about the other side.

You can just follow the posts from there to see highlights like:

"They really are a white collar terrorist group."

"It's like they don't care whether children are caged or not, they just want to kill as many kids as possible. We're never getting out of this nightmare because of these cockroaches. If said cockroaches die from COVID-19, then they'll only have themselves to blame."

Sorry i know this wasn't addressed at me.