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the-pi-guy said:
The_Yoda said:

A lot of Rush is evil talk here. He was a windbag but evil ... not so sure about that https://www.forbes.com/2008/11/24/oprah-philanthropy-celebrity-biz-media-cz_dkr_1124charitycelebs.html?sh=6c2f27e15dbf

Let's see a few million in charity vs celebrating gay people dying, brainwashing millions of Americans about politics, cancer and climate change.  

Oh I guess that evens out. 

Sure he wasn't pure evil, he just damaged America in a way that plenty of genuinely evil people would be jealous of.  

Do you endorse people calling him evil and celebrating him dying? I don't seem to see you calling them out but I also don't see you condemning them or offering a counter point.  Do you just perhaps do that for people with views that run parallel enough to yours?

Also did you see me calling him a saint?  I called him a windbag, he was an entertainer not completely unlike Colbert, Maher, or Beck.  I just don't know that I would consider him evil.



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Speaking of evil, BTC sums up the Ted Cruz scandal nicely:

This is straight up cartoonish.



TallSilhouette said:

Speaking of evil, BTC sums up the Ted Cruz scandal nicely:

This is straight up cartoonish.

care to give a breakdown of what happened? I'm not watchin' 8 minutes unless it's juicy. 



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Runa216 said:

care to give a breakdown of what happened? I'm not watchin' 8 minutes unless it's juicy. 

There's not really any filler in that 8 minutes; it's all pertinent. While Texans are literally freezing to death in their own homes due to a nearly unprecedented storm and resulting breakdown of infrastructure, their senator decides now is a good time to go vacation in Cancun for a while. Brian then proceeds to debunk the right's ridiculously bad talking points on the matter.



When a House Democrat from New York is doing more to help Texas than their own Republican Senator...

Talk about irony.

Last edited by PAOerfulone - on 18 February 2021

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PAOerfulone said:

When a House Democrat from New York is doing more to help Texas than their own Republican Senator...

Talk about irony.

This is amazing, some people just get things done no matter what :)



Rab said:
Machiavellian said:

Ok, so you do not care about doing something now, instead you are still going for the long ball.  You believe because of some moderate success with AOC, that will translate into huge success on the national level. 

The funny thing is then you go on about the poor should not have to wait forever but for some reason you believe Bernie plan will suddenly get you 60 votes in the Senate within what time frame.  You have absolutely no clue how long or even successful this plan will be but you putting all your eggs in this one basket while people need something done today.

So basically you have no plan for today.  Because right now without compromise and finding a middle ground, you get nothing.  You cannot sway any Republicans and you have a few Dems who are looking at a different course and you even have a President who isn't whole hog on total Progressive policies.  So for people in need today, your plan is wait and see while you then talk about you shouldn't have to wait forever for my brilliant plan to work.

Problem is with your plan it wont work, never has, and its been decades, have been trying to make this point forever, but is conveniently ignored every post

I have never said "now", and because of that you have some how twisted it into some long term distant goal that probably wont happen, trying to make it appear that the current system of compromises that have been a disappointment and fail, are sooo much better, way to go :) 

You guys are so disingenuous in your reply's its comical, at least I can see you guys for what you are, you have done this before ;) 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/07/6-facts-about-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s/ 

https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_social-problems-continuity-and-change/s16-04-problems-of-health-care-in-the.html

 

So you saying if Joe is ok with doing 11 dollars minimum wage instead of 15 that isn't working.  So in your eyes, either you get everything you want or you want nothing.  Hmmm, man that sound just like how the GOP operate.  You keep going on about current system of compromises not working as if the Dems ever had for any length of time 60 votes to get everything they wanted.  This is the part that doesn't make sense about your argument.  Its like you totally ignore how the Senate works just because in your eyes there hasn't been any progress fast enough for you but then you talk about a plan which in itself gives you nothing immediately and at worst doesn't happen at all while the Senate still has the filibuster.

Really, its like you just paid attention to US politics in like the last 2 years and believe that the system changes to what you believe it should be suddenly.  

You are right you never said now because you know what you are proposing has nothing to deal with today.  You are proposing something that is some future you hope will come and you are putting everything on that future with no plan B.  You will basically take no step unless the step is everything you want which is pretty much nothing because getting to 60 isn't going to magically happen no matter how much you believe in Bernie.  Bernie has been a Senator for a very long time pushing for his agenda and only now some issues are getting raised but even so, there is still a lot of push back.  On the Republican end its not even making a dent and who knows if the Dems will even retain majority in 2 years.

The thing is I am not against that plan you love so much, I just believe that only depending on that plan is foolish.  The effort to change hearts and minds just do not happen overnight within the US, it never has.  So for future endeavors, yes getting awareness out their is great, believing it will suddenly happen within the next 2 years or better, well you are hoping for a miracle.  Out side of that there is absolutely no choice but to compromise whether you like it or not because all 50 votes are needed.  That is pretty much it.  All 50 votes or you get nothing, so you must compromise.  It really doesn't matter about your feelings because this is the reality today and it probably isn't going to change any time soon.

So the question is, do you want something now and work towards the future or do you want nothing and hope for this possible future.  I guess that old proverb 'A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' comes to mind when arguing these points with you.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 19 February 2021

Machiavellian said:
Rab said:

Problem is with your plan it wont work, never has, and its been decades, have been trying to make this point forever, but is conveniently ignored every post

I have never said "now", and because of that you have some how twisted it into some long term distant goal that probably wont happen, trying to make it appear that the current system of compromises that have been a disappointment and fail, are sooo much better, way to go :) 

You guys are so disingenuous in your reply's its comical, at least I can see you guys for what you are, you have done this before ;) 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/07/6-facts-about-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s/ 

https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_social-problems-continuity-and-change/s16-04-problems-of-health-care-in-the.html

 

So you saying if Joe is ok with doing 11 dollars minimum wage instead of 15 that isn't working.  So in your eyes, either you get everything you want or you want nothing.  Hmmm, man that sound just like how the GOP operate.  You keep going on about current system of compromises not working as if the Dems ever had for any length of time 60 votes to get everything they wanted.  This is the part that doesn't make sense about your argument.  Its like you totally ignore how the Senate works just because in your eyes there hasn't been any progress fast enough for you but then you talk about a plan which in itself gives you nothing immediately and at worst doesn't happen at all while the Senate still has the filibuster.

Really, its like you just paid attention to US politics in like the last 2 years and believe that the system changes to what you believe it should be suddenly.  

You are right you never said now because you know what you are proposing has nothing to deal with today.  You are proposing something that is some future you hope will come and you are putting everything on that future with no plan B.  You will basically take no step unless the step is everything you want which is pretty much nothing because getting to 60 isn't going to magically happen no matter how much you believe in Bernie.  Bernie has been a Senator for a very long time pushing for his agenda and only now some issues are getting raised but even so, there is still a lot of push back.  On the Republican end its not even making a dent and who knows if the Dems will even retain majority in 2 years.

The thing is I am not against that plan you love so much, I just believe that only depending on that plan is foolish.  The effort to change hearts and minds just do not happen overnight within the US, it never has.  So for future endeavors, yes getting awareness out their is great, believing it will suddenly happen within the next 2 years or better, well you are hoping for a miracle.  Out side of that there is absolutely no choice but to compromise whether you like it or not because all 50 votes are needed.  That is pretty much it.  All 50 votes or you get nothing, so you must compromise.  It really doesn't matter about your feelings because this is the reality today and it probably isn't going to change any time soon.

So the question is, do you want something now and work towards the future or do you want nothing and hope for this possible future.  I guess that old proverb 'A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush' comes to mind when arguing these points with you.

Not surprised you have misunderstood the Progressives "take it to the people" plan, it actually includes getting 60 votes (its not some super power of change), but the plan is not about getting those 60 votes through continuous compromises that have not worked in like forever, man just look at the US and it's systems, it's Broken, move on buddy and try and get those 60 votes on issues that actually change things, not half arsed measures that reassure the Rich and the Right  

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/02/07/6-facts-about-economic-inequality-in-the-u-s/ 

https://saylordotorg.github.io/text_social-problems-continuity-and-change/s16-04-problems-of-health-care-in-the.html

Last edited by Rab - on 19 February 2021

The_Yoda said:
the-pi-guy said:

Let's see a few million in charity vs celebrating gay people dying, brainwashing millions of Americans about politics, cancer and climate change.  

Oh I guess that evens out. 

Sure he wasn't pure evil, he just damaged America in a way that plenty of genuinely evil people would be jealous of.  

Do you endorse people calling him evil and celebrating him dying? I don't seem to see you calling them out but I also don't see you condemning them or offering a counter point.  Do you just perhaps do that for people with views that run parallel enough to yours?

Also did you see me calling him a saint?  I called him a windbag, he was an entertainer not completely unlike Colbert, Maher, or Beck.  I just don't know that I would consider him evil.

If you can compare Limbaugh with Colbert with a straight face then I'm not surprised that you cannot recognize evil.



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Rab said:

Not surprised you have misunderstood the Progressives "take it to the people" plan, it actually includes getting 60 votes (its not some super power of change), but the plan is not about getting those 60 votes through continuous compromises that have not worked in like forever, man just look at the US and it's systems, it's Broken, move on buddy and try and get those 60 votes on issues that actually change things, not half arsed measures that reassure the Rich and the Right  

I don't think anybody is against Progressives working to get 60 votes. My point is simply that we need to work with what we have until we get there.

Let me ask you a question: If the Covid relief bill is put through Congress with $1400 Stimulus Checks, Increased Unemployment Relief, Increased Eviction Protection and Rent Relief, Increased funding for SNAP and other food stability programs and basically everything on the wishlist except Minimum wage is only increased to $11 and not $15, would you push for Progressive senators to vote "No" on that bill?