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The next 2 years are gonna be really interesting. Not "Trump interesting", but actually politically interesting. It feels like the lame duck Obama times are over and shit may finally get done. Either that or we may have the Democrats splitting their party even before the Republicans rip themselves apart.

I also want to highlight another really important thing. The mid term elections in 2022 will follow the redistricting of ALL congressional districts following the 2020 census. Depending on how hard the courts will come down on gerrymandering this might do a lot or nothing at all. Though I remain hopeful.



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sundin13 said:
Rab said:

Ok so you don't trust her views, I do

If Biden isnt careful immediately and starts letting the Est. get a hold, progressive policies could slide, he will lose his presidency in 4 years and even the control of the senate in 2, it's a hard pill to swallow for the Est., they will deny it's an issue until it is

She just makes no bones about it.. rubs people ;)  

There is a big difference between what you just said and what she said in that video. I think the fact that you need to completely change the message from a video under the premise of "Coulda Had Bernie", in which she complains about Biden proposing policies which are good and similar to Bernie's (which are amaaazing), speaks volumes about how strong and evidence based her message really is.

Reality is, if Bernie was president, he would be dealing with the exact same shit. You can't pass anything without the Senate and you simply don't have unanimous approval from all Democrats to get this stuff done, even if you can get past the filibuster (Budget reconciliation only gets you so far). It is nothing but a fantasy to think that Saint Bernard would step into office and suddenly Joe Manchin will support a progressive agenda. The only way we are going to get anything done is by going through him. Taking the strong arm route likely will do little more than lose us his seat, so yeah, we are going to have to take a step back from the progressive agenda and compromise. Welcome to the government. Change takes place in the margins until the people demand otherwise and the people gave us a split Senate, lost us seats in the House and gave us a moderate President, yet despite all that, Biden is still pushing in a remarkably progressive direction. Yes, we will have to compromise, but you are off your rocker if you think Bernie would just waltz in and pass anything close to M4A. 

I believe people forget about Obama years in office.  Obama talked a lot of good shit about change and all that good stuff but I am not sure if he really believe it but that kind of progressive change cannot come from the President office alone.  I believe Rad you are not understanding that Bernie and his progressive movement isn't supported at all by conservatives and definitely not supported by all Dems either.  Preaching something and actually being able to accomplish it are 2 different things.

Now what I find interesting is the term limits on congress headed by all people Ted Cruz.  Lets see that get actual real attention then we might be able to see more movement within Congress.



vivster said:

The next 2 years are gonna be really interesting. Not "Trump interesting", but actually politically interesting. It feels like the lame duck Obama times are over and shit may finally get done. Either that or we may have the Democrats splitting their party even before the Republicans rip themselves apart.

I also want to highlight another really important thing. The mid term elections in 2022 will follow the redistricting of ALL congressional districts following the 2020 census. Depending on how hard the courts will come down on gerrymandering this might do a lot or nothing at all. Though I remain hopeful.

Do not forget that Obama 2 years were the same where the house and Senate was under Dems control then after passing ACA, is where the Dems lost the house then lost the Senate or vice versa cannot remember which went first.  This could be the same situation for Biden as well.  Even though Obama was able to keep the President seat, Republicans worked very hard to keep those Senate and house seats and lets not forget how many seats they gained this term.



Machiavellian said:
vivster said:

The next 2 years are gonna be really interesting. Not "Trump interesting", but actually politically interesting. It feels like the lame duck Obama times are over and shit may finally get done. Either that or we may have the Democrats splitting their party even before the Republicans rip themselves apart.

I also want to highlight another really important thing. The mid term elections in 2022 will follow the redistricting of ALL congressional districts following the 2020 census. Depending on how hard the courts will come down on gerrymandering this might do a lot or nothing at all. Though I remain hopeful.

Do not forget that Obama 2 years were the same where the house and Senate was under Dems control then after passing ACA, is where the Dems lost the house then lost the Senate or vice versa cannot remember which went first.  This could be the same situation for Biden as well.  Even though Obama was able to keep the President seat, Republicans worked very hard to keep those Senate and house seats and lets not forget how many seats they gained this term.

I feel like Democrats will feel emboldened by how Georgia was flipped. They may realize that it's actually possible to win swing states if they just put in the effort. There is also the redistricting which could swing a lot of house seats by its own. The progressives just have to push harder in all states.

As with all elections the Republicans will only win if the Democrats do nothing and usually they do just that, but the last election might just be enough to put some fire under their asses. Biden seems to be motivated for now and he surrounded himself with motivated people.

I haven't followed the midterm elections back then, but I can't imagine that they had the same feeling of urgency as the next midterms will have.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Biden orders to not renew federal private prison contracts.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-race-and-ethnicity-prisons-coronavirus-pandemic-c8c246f00695f37ef2afb1dd3a5f115e

This is absolutely amazing. Here I try to sober my expectations and then he hits this homerun. One more small step towards securing more democrat voters.



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Rab said:
sundin13 said:

There is a big difference between what you just said and what she said in that video. I think the fact that you need to completely change the message from a video under the premise of "Coulda Had Bernie", in which she complains about Biden proposing policies which are good and similar to Bernie's (which are amaaazing), speaks volumes about how strong and evidence based her message really is.

Reality is, if Bernie was president, he would be dealing with the exact same shit. You can't pass anything without the Senate and you simply don't have unanimous approval from all Democrats to get this stuff done, even if you can get past the filibuster (Budget reconciliation only gets you so far). It is nothing but a fantasy to think that Saint Bernard would step into office and suddenly Joe Manchin will support a progressive agenda. The only way we are going to get anything done is by going through him. Taking the strong arm route likely will do little more than lose us his seat, so yeah, we are going to have to take a step back from the progressive agenda and compromise. Welcome to the government. Change takes place in the margins until the people demand otherwise and the people gave us a split Senate, lost us seats in the House and gave us a moderate President, yet despite all that, Biden is still pushing in a remarkably progressive direction. Yes, we will have to compromise, but you are off your rocker if you think Bernie would just waltz in and pass anything close to M4A. 

"Saint Bernard".. You realise it was Bernie's work over decades and his progressive movement that included a $15 minimum wage, Green New Deal, M4A and many other progressive policies that moved the needle for Biden's future policies? 

Without Bernie you would not even have the sniff of those things coming into reality from Biden's Est. camp, Bernie has made progressive policies virtually impossible to ignore now, particularly with the young and upcoming voters   

Playing down Bernie is so Est. even now when they are finally starting to support these things, they just think they thought this up themselves, it's the sort of hypocrisy that fires people up including our lovely Kristal Ball

Years of "compromise" with the Reps got the US where?.. in the shite it's in now that's where, doing the same thing expecting different results, only this time Bernie's movement has given the US a chance, not Biden, he is just hooking his wagon to Bernie's movement and enjoying the ride, as he had no policies of any merit until Bernie and others showed him what could be done 

Just to be clear Bernie never expected the senate to back him if he won, he made it clear in his campaign, if a senator needed convincing he was going to go to that state and personally advertise and inform each constituency of their senators "wrong" decision and in time turn the people against them in any of their upcoming elections, he wasn't BS'ing, he would do it, very Bernie  

You seem to really like arguing points I never made.

I do in fact realize the importance of Bernie's activism on our current political climate. I do not believe that Biden's plans are completely independent of Bernie, and given the fact that Biden and Bernie worked together, I doubt Biden would say anything different. Your arguing with ghosts here...

What I did say is that I disagree when people treat Bernie like the second coming and act like "if only the big bad establishment didn't steal the election we would be living in a socialist paradise". Like I said, if Bernie was president, he would be dealing with all of the same shit that Biden is. It doesn't matter what he says he wants to do, whether it is through budget reconciliation or otherwise. Comparing Bernie's hopes and dreams to the reality of Biden's presidency is always going to be a bad take, 100% of the time, and I will do my part in calling out these shit takes when I see them. Saying "Biden had no policies until Bernie" is also just idol worshipping nonsense, that contributes nothing, even if it were true. Given the fact that you seem to have no problem supporting Bernie surrogates, I feel like you are just taking a pointless jab at Biden here...

Like you yourself admitted, Bernie wouldn't have the backing of the Senate if he won, so how exactly would we be in a markedly better position at this exact point in time with him as President? Pressure Moderates into backing a progressive agenda? Oh please. It isn't some cosmic coincidence that the Dem senator from deep red WV is a moderate. He is a moderate because the people asked for a moderate. 

How do we know this?

Well, Bernie already tried his hand at unseating Joe Manchin just two years ago, and what happened? Joe Manchin stomped Bernie's progressive candidate, because of course he did. "But that is just a primary", you may be thinking. "Things are different in the general when voters aren't concerned with things like electability". Okay, well luckily that same Bernie backed candidate ran again in 2020. How did things go in the general? They got abso-fucking-lutely destroyed. They lost by fourty-three points. So, okay, maybe Bernie as president puts the pressure on Joe Manchin and hurts him as a candidate. Bernie would have likely just handed the Republicans another seat in the Senate, but even still, we would have to wait until his first term was over to see that change. He's stuck with Joe Manchin for the next four years. 

I will also note that you seem to think the opposite of compromise in Washington is change. I disagree. The opposite of compromise is stagnation. You may not be satisfied with the change that happens through compromise, but unless the people put us in a position where we don't have to compromise, we have to compromise. The Republicans would love if Biden spend two years holding up an uncompromising progressive agenda and getting rejected day in and day out by his own party. We'd be doing their job for them. If the people want radical change, they need to vote for it, and they very clearly did not do so this year. As such, we either need to compromise or we get nothing. That is just as true under Biden as it would be under Bernie.



sundin13 said:
Rab said:

"Saint Bernard".. You realise it was Bernie's work over decades and his progressive movement that included a $15 minimum wage, Green New Deal, M4A and many other progressive policies that moved the needle for Biden's future policies? 

Without Bernie you would not even have the sniff of those things coming into reality from Biden's Est. camp, Bernie has made progressive policies virtually impossible to ignore now, particularly with the young and upcoming voters   

Playing down Bernie is so Est. even now when they are finally starting to support these things, they just think they thought this up themselves, it's the sort of hypocrisy that fires people up including our lovely Kristal Ball

Years of "compromise" with the Reps got the US where?.. in the shite it's in now that's where, doing the same thing expecting different results, only this time Bernie's movement has given the US a chance, not Biden, he is just hooking his wagon to Bernie's movement and enjoying the ride, as he had no policies of any merit until Bernie and others showed him what could be done 

Just to be clear Bernie never expected the senate to back him if he won, he made it clear in his campaign, if a senator needed convincing he was going to go to that state and personally advertise and inform each constituency of their senators "wrong" decision and in time turn the people against them in any of their upcoming elections, he wasn't BS'ing, he would do it, very Bernie  

You seem to really like arguing points I never made.

I do in fact realize the importance of Bernie's activism on our current political climate. I do not believe that Biden's plans are completely independent of Bernie, and given the fact that Biden and Bernie worked together, I doubt Biden would say anything different. Your arguing with ghosts here...

What I did say is that I disagree when people treat Bernie like the second coming and act like "if only the big bad establishment didn't steal the election we would be living in a socialist paradise". Like I said, if Bernie was president, he would be dealing with all of the same shit that Biden is. It doesn't matter what he says he wants to do, whether it is through budget reconciliation or otherwise. Comparing Bernie's hopes and dreams to the reality of Biden's presidency is always going to be a bad take, 100% of the time, and I will do my part in calling out these shit takes when I see them. Saying "Biden had no policies until Bernie" is also just idol worshipping nonsense, that contributes nothing, even if it were true. Given the fact that you seem to have no problem supporting Bernie surrogates, I feel like you are just taking a pointless jab at Biden here...

Like you yourself admitted, Bernie wouldn't have the backing of the Senate if he won, so how exactly would we be in a markedly better position at this exact point in time with him as President? Pressure Moderates into backing a progressive agenda? Oh please. It isn't some cosmic coincidence that the Dem senator from deep red WV is a moderate. He is a moderate because the people asked for a moderate. 

How do we know this?

Well, Bernie already tried his hand at unseating Joe Manchin just two years ago, and what happened? Joe Manchin stomped Bernie's progressive candidate, because of course he did. "But that is just a primary", you may be thinking. "Things are different in the general when voters aren't concerned with things like electability". Okay, well luckily that same Bernie backed candidate ran again in 2020. How did things go in the general? They got abso-fucking-lutely destroyed. They lost by fourty-three points. So, okay, maybe Bernie as president puts the pressure on Joe Manchin and hurts him as a candidate. Bernie would have likely just handed the Republicans another seat in the Senate, but even still, we would have to wait until his first term was over to see that change. He's stuck with Joe Manchin for the next four years. 

I will also note that you seem to think the opposite of compromise in Washington is change. I disagree. The opposite of compromise is stagnation. You may not be satisfied with the change that happens through compromise, but unless the people put us in a position where we don't have to compromise, we have to compromise. The Republicans would love if Biden spend two years holding up an uncompromising progressive agenda and getting rejected day in and day out by his own party. We'd be doing their job for them. If the people want radical change, they need to vote for it, and they very clearly did not do so this year. As such, we either need to compromise or we get nothing. That is just as true under Biden as it would be under Bernie.

Poleeese.. If you think business as usual compromising worked in the past, then I don't know what to say to someone so mentally stuck (although we do seem to be on the same page politically) 

The Dems trying to appease the Reps has lead to the disaster of broken promises and missed opportunities that is the US, doing the same wont magically work no matter how much you think it's necessary or reasoned in your own mind

I explained what Bernie wanted to do, not just canvas against Dems but the Reps as well in each individual state, laser focusing on the reforms need such as M4A (which is very popular).. do something different is a sign your actually trying, doing the same appeasement/compromise merry-go-round and still getting the same result is a sign you aren't trying/lack imagination  

Biden has the light of progressive ideas shining on him now, and it is showing results even this early, my hope is Biden will work with the progressives to develop different strategies outside of the old poorly working compromise model that has lead to the disaster that has been the US  

If the Dems don't give the people what they need (M4A, Green New Deal, Free College Tuition, $15 min wage, Higher taxes for Corps and Rich, Prison reform, etc.) then in 2 years the Trumpian Reps will have control, and in 4 the Trumpian Reps will win back the white house.. it's the Dems time to win back the vast majority of the people by actually improving conditions in the US for them, not just the corps or rich as seen in previous Dem admins  

Anyway, our politics matches, it's just our concerns going forward and how we deal with it that doesn't.. peace out ;)  

 



Rab said:
sundin13 said:

You seem to really like arguing points I never made.

I do in fact realize the importance of Bernie's activism on our current political climate. I do not believe that Biden's plans are completely independent of Bernie, and given the fact that Biden and Bernie worked together, I doubt Biden would say anything different. Your arguing with ghosts here...

What I did say is that I disagree when people treat Bernie like the second coming and act like "if only the big bad establishment didn't steal the election we would be living in a socialist paradise". Like I said, if Bernie was president, he would be dealing with all of the same shit that Biden is. It doesn't matter what he says he wants to do, whether it is through budget reconciliation or otherwise. Comparing Bernie's hopes and dreams to the reality of Biden's presidency is always going to be a bad take, 100% of the time, and I will do my part in calling out these shit takes when I see them. Saying "Biden had no policies until Bernie" is also just idol worshipping nonsense, that contributes nothing, even if it were true. Given the fact that you seem to have no problem supporting Bernie surrogates, I feel like you are just taking a pointless jab at Biden here...

Like you yourself admitted, Bernie wouldn't have the backing of the Senate if he won, so how exactly would we be in a markedly better position at this exact point in time with him as President? Pressure Moderates into backing a progressive agenda? Oh please. It isn't some cosmic coincidence that the Dem senator from deep red WV is a moderate. He is a moderate because the people asked for a moderate. 

How do we know this?

Well, Bernie already tried his hand at unseating Joe Manchin just two years ago, and what happened? Joe Manchin stomped Bernie's progressive candidate, because of course he did. "But that is just a primary", you may be thinking. "Things are different in the general when voters aren't concerned with things like electability". Okay, well luckily that same Bernie backed candidate ran again in 2020. How did things go in the general? They got abso-fucking-lutely destroyed. They lost by fourty-three points. So, okay, maybe Bernie as president puts the pressure on Joe Manchin and hurts him as a candidate. Bernie would have likely just handed the Republicans another seat in the Senate, but even still, we would have to wait until his first term was over to see that change. He's stuck with Joe Manchin for the next four years. 

I will also note that you seem to think the opposite of compromise in Washington is change. I disagree. The opposite of compromise is stagnation. You may not be satisfied with the change that happens through compromise, but unless the people put us in a position where we don't have to compromise, we have to compromise. The Republicans would love if Biden spend two years holding up an uncompromising progressive agenda and getting rejected day in and day out by his own party. We'd be doing their job for them. If the people want radical change, they need to vote for it, and they very clearly did not do so this year. As such, we either need to compromise or we get nothing. That is just as true under Biden as it would be under Bernie.

Poleeese.. If you think business as usual compromising worked in the past, then I don't know what to say to someone so mentally stuck (although we do seem to be on the same page politically) 

The Dems trying to appease the Reps has lead to the disaster of broken promises and missed opportunities that is the US, doing the same wont magically work no matter how much you think it's necessary or reasoned in your own mind

I explained what Bernie wanted to do, not just canvas against Dems but the Reps as well in each individual state, laser focusing on the reforms need such as M4A (which is very popular).. do something different is a sign your actually trying, doing the same appeasement/compromise merry-go-round and still getting the same result is a sign you aren't trying/lack imagination  

Biden has the light of progressive ideas shining on him now, and it is showing results even this early, my hope is Biden will work with the progressives to develop different strategies outside of the old poorly working compromise model that has lead to the disaster that has been the US  

If the Dems don't give the people what they need (M4A, Green New Deal, Free College Tuition, $15 min wage, Higher taxes for Corps and Rich, Prison reform, etc.) then in 2 years the Trumpian Reps will have control, and in 4 the Trumpian Reps will win back the white house.. it's the Dems time to win back the vast majority of the people by actually improving conditions in the US for them, not just the corps or rich as seen in previous Dem admins  

Anyway, our politics matches, it's just our concerns going forward and how we deal with it that doesn't.. peace out ;)  

Again, you seem to really like arguing against ghosts.

I never stated that "business as usual compromising worked in the past", I simply stated that compromise is necessary to sign legislation. The opposite of compromise is not radical change, it is inaction. If you have a split Senate and you don't have the moderates on board you either appeal to those moderates or sit there with your thumb up your ass until the Republicans take power again on the back of said inaction. Radical change needs to be the result of voters, not some magical old white guy with top tier mittens. 

I believe that the far left has a lot of great policy, but they can be incredibly stupid on strategy, and some of the takes of the left wing grift crew are not just embarrassingly bad, but also harmful. Nuking moderates helps nobody. Moderates are an important part of the dem coalition. If you are on the left, you need to be direct and precise with your criticisms of the left, else you just feed the Republican propaganda train. Wide, vapid and vague complaints about the evils of the establishment accomplish nothing.

And just so you know, I don't plan on stopping with my criticisms of some of the garbage videos you post. I don't care if the person spewing said garbage has similar politics to me, bad takes are bad takes and all bad takes do is weaken our position.



I know I shouldn't be surprised at this point, but I'm still amazed at just how batshit crazy the Republican party has become. In the latest example, the Oregon GOP releases a resolution calling the Capitol riot a false flag operation. I can only hope this is the desperate flailing of a crumbling party that will soon go the way of the Whigs.



sundin13 said:
Rab said:

Poleeese.. If you think business as usual compromising worked in the past, then I don't know what to say to someone so mentally stuck (although we do seem to be on the same page politically) 

The Dems trying to appease the Reps has lead to the disaster of broken promises and missed opportunities that is the US, doing the same wont magically work no matter how much you think it's necessary or reasoned in your own mind

I explained what Bernie wanted to do, not just canvas against Dems but the Reps as well in each individual state, laser focusing on the reforms need such as M4A (which is very popular).. do something different is a sign your actually trying, doing the same appeasement/compromise merry-go-round and still getting the same result is a sign you aren't trying/lack imagination  

Biden has the light of progressive ideas shining on him now, and it is showing results even this early, my hope is Biden will work with the progressives to develop different strategies outside of the old poorly working compromise model that has lead to the disaster that has been the US  

If the Dems don't give the people what they need (M4A, Green New Deal, Free College Tuition, $15 min wage, Higher taxes for Corps and Rich, Prison reform, etc.) then in 2 years the Trumpian Reps will have control, and in 4 the Trumpian Reps will win back the white house.. it's the Dems time to win back the vast majority of the people by actually improving conditions in the US for them, not just the corps or rich as seen in previous Dem admins  

Anyway, our politics matches, it's just our concerns going forward and how we deal with it that doesn't.. peace out ;)  

Again, you seem to really like arguing against ghosts.

I never stated that "business as usual compromising worked in the past", I simply stated that compromise is necessary to sign legislation. The opposite of compromise is not radical change, it is inaction. If you have a split Senate and you don't have the moderates on board you either appeal to those moderates or sit there with your thumb up your ass until the Republicans take power again on the back of said inaction. Radical change needs to be the result of voters, not some magical old white guy with top tier mittens. 

I believe that the far left has a lot of great policy, but they can be incredibly stupid on strategy, and some of the takes of the left wing grift crew are not just embarrassingly bad, but also harmful. Nuking moderates helps nobody. Moderates are an important part of the dem coalition. If you are on the left, you need to be direct and precise with your criticisms of the left, else you just feed the Republican propaganda train. Wide, vapid and vague complaints about the evils of the establishment accomplish nothing.

And just so you know, I don't plan on stopping with my criticisms of some of the garbage videos you post. I don't care if the person spewing said garbage has similar politics to me, bad takes are bad takes and all bad takes do is weaken our position.

That's fine, we disagree on Krystal Ball

The "Moderates" you talk about would fit nicely on the Right side of politics in other developed nations, generally the "Left" in the US sits somewhere at the centre of politics in other developed nations   

"Moderates" just use appeasement politics, they are "Rep Lite", they are status quo, there is a reason the Est. love them and espouse their virtues, they cater to the Right by helping Corps and the Rich stay in power to control the nations narrative

The "Left" have disrupted this model very effectively this and the previous cycle, they just need the older generation to drop the "Moderate" (Rep Lite) talk and join with the left leaning youth/new voter, it will happen eventually, the US needs to change for the better socially/economically (not just cater to the Rich and Powerful)   

Last edited by Rab - on 26 January 2021