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RolStoppable said:
curl-6 said:

My impression, as a non-American watching this unfold from the outside, is that the US really seems like a third world country at this point; an attempted coup, deep and violent division along cultural, class, and racial lines, a clearly deranged leader who has managed to brainwash millions into a cult that live in a delusional fantasy world of conspiracy theories...

It's frankly horrifying to witness, especially as I have American friends. I really hope that in the coming years the damage can begin to heal, and that this tailspin isn't terminal.

For the most part, things will return to how they were before Trump.

There were a few thousand strong Trump supporters in Washington, but only several hundred of them were willing to go as far as what we've witnessed. The total amount of complete nutjobs in the USA is fairly small, at most you have a few thousand more spread across the entire country, but that's not anywhere close enough to get a civil war going; yes, the word civil war is actually coming up in reports. As if that worst case scenario was even remotely realistic.

Trump may have received more votes than any republican candidate before him, but the average republican voter is not a member of Trump's cult. They have lived through presidencies of democrats before, so they know how it is and will just look forward to the next elections to change things, rather than think about taking any other actions.

The biggest thing that enabled the stupidity of the past few years is that the POTUS has special rights and privileges, and that allowed Trump to use social media as a platform to spread lies and fuel fires. The upcoming POTUS won't be like that and anyone who isn't POTUS will get suspended or banned on social media for Trump-like behavior, including Trump himself once his presidency is over. When people stop being fed conspiracies from the highest priorities, the likelihood that people believe in conspiracies will drop sharply.

What we could learn from the past few years is that the USA, despite its glaring flaws in the election system, has enough stops in place to survive a Trump.

This is extremely concerning and anyone who expresses this view should question it. 

Or are you going to go "back to the normal" that also spawned him and his people and which will only spawn more over time? 



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AsGryffynn said:
RolStoppable said:

What we could learn from the past few years is that the USA, despite its glaring flaws in the election system, has enough stops in place to survive a Trump.

This is extremely concerning and anyone who expresses this view should question it. 

Or are you going to go "back to the normal" that also spawned him and his people and which will only spawn more over time? 

I agree with Rol on that statement but the question is what do we do now.  There will always be challenges to the constitution and how our government is able to respond to those challenges.  The problem is believing that just because it hasn't happen yet it won't.  The key issue is now that we know some of the wholes in the process, how are they plugged so that certain processes are made extremely clear.  Case in point would be the whole Pence can just deny counting the EC votes.  Politically, Pence waited until the last moment to state he was not going to go down that dangerous path but what happens if there was control of the house and senate by Republicans and this route had a chance of success.  That also goes to what if the house and Senate were controlled by the Republicans and their rejection of the EC vote from those states in question had a chance of success.  Each situation presents a chance where if either party has control, this could have been a very different outcome.

Most flaws in a system has to be challenged in order for people to not only see the flaw but understand how bad it can be depending on the situation.  The people that Trump attracted are the people that believe in conspiracy.  They did not just spawn out of nowhere, they have always been in the US, waiting on their chance to come to the surface.  You can believe there will be another person who will tap into that group or others and find ways to challenge the system again.  The checks and balances were enough today but if key position where in charged by someone like Hawley well, things could definitely go south.  

My point is that the system does have a lot of parts that require not just one person but a large segment to truly break the current system as it is today.  From the courts, to Congress even state and local officials.



Hiku said:
vivster said:

I heard the one with the heart attack accidentally tased himself. Sounds very believable.

After police a few months ago described pushing that old man and cracking his skull as "he tripped and fell", this sounds very legit.
Although these are the geniuses that decided to storm the capitol building, so who knows.

Actually the thought that it could have been made up by the police didn't even cross my mind. A Trump cultist tasing himself is just that easy to imagine.



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I don't think the politics of the US are particularly unusual. Eastern Europe and Subsaharan Africa are filled with that sort of nationalistic Christian autocrat wannabes, and more recently the disease has spread to Latin America coinciding with the rise of Evangelicalism.

Blame the two-party system for potentializing that sort of rhetoric from ~ 20% of the population to something that is able to win elections...



 

 

 

 

 

haxxiy said:

I don't think the politics of the US are particularly unusual. Eastern Europe and Subsaharan Africa are filled with that sort of nationalistic Christian autocrat wannabes, and more recently the disease has spread to Latin America coinciding with the rise of Evangelicalism.

Blame the two-party system for potentializing that sort of rhetoric from ~ 20% of the population to something that is able to win elections...

I've been telling everyone bipartisanship is the crux of the issue. You need to make a third party viable. There are some countries where a budget is allocated equally for all running parties and they are only allowed to rely on it. Maybe America needs that. Let's see how things pan out when the Green Party has the same $ as the GOP and Dems. 



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haxxiy said:

I don't think the politics of the US are particularly unusual. Eastern Europe and Subsaharan Africa are filled with that sort of nationalistic Christian autocrat wannabes, and more recently the disease has spread to Latin America coinciding with the rise of Evangelicalism.

Blame the two-party system for potentializing that sort of rhetoric from ~ 20% of the population to something that is able to win elections...

True, when you lower the standard to actual banana republics then yeah, politics of the US are not unusual anymore. Compared to first world countries though...

AsGryffynn said:
haxxiy said:

I don't think the politics of the US are particularly unusual. Eastern Europe and Subsaharan Africa are filled with that sort of nationalistic Christian autocrat wannabes, and more recently the disease has spread to Latin America coinciding with the rise of Evangelicalism.

Blame the two-party system for potentializing that sort of rhetoric from ~ 20% of the population to something that is able to win elections...

I've been telling everyone bipartisanship is the crux of the issue. You need to make a third party viable. There are some countries where a budget is allocated equally for all running parties and they are only allowed to rely on it. Maybe America needs that. Let's see how things pan out when the Green Party has the same $ as the GOP and Dems. 

And here's the problem: With the current voting system, there can only be a 2 party system on the long run. And even with the NaPoVoInterCo, which would guarantee that the one with the most votes wins the election, it doesn't resolve the issue that there are still only 2 really viable options and third parties would be considered even more of a spoiler as they already are right now.

One problem is the power of the president being akin to the power of an absolutist king. In the US, the president has the ability to fire his secretaries at will. In pretty much every other civilized country, ministers, who serve more or less the same role as secretaries in the US, generally stay in office until they lose the election of retire for whatever reason. Why is this a problem? Because it could otherwise be a potential solution to the 2-party system: Elect not just the president, but the entire cabinet at once.

Whoever gets the most votes would still become president, but the positions of the 22 officers (or maybe just the 15 principal officers) would be awarded depending on proportional votes. For instance, with all 22 officers in play, if the Democrats would win 46% of the popular vote, the Republicans 43% of the votes, the Libertarians 6% and the Green 4%, then both the Libertarians and the Greens would get one spot, the Republicans 10 and the Democrats 10 (unless I'm off with the rounding; also a highest averages system like the d'Hondt method or a largest remainder method like the Hagenbach-Bishoff Quota sould be used for more precise, but slightly less proportional results in case of the largest remainder system) and the President would be a Democrat.

This would also force cooperation between the parties and would stop the self-destructive spiral the US is on right now by stopping the animosity between party members to become so absurdly elevated. Also, smaller parties would get some representation and would not be considered a lost vote anymore.

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 08 January 2021

Wait...will there ACTUALLY be consequences for insurrection? Inevitably too few and too mild, but it's a start:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-foot-desk-pelosi-s-office-capitol-arrested-n1253490
https://www.foxnews.com/us/4-capitol-riot-suspects-nancy-pelosis-office-face-federal-charges



Lets be realistic here... Trump was elected for the people, by the people.
Everything that has occurred over the last 4 years is the United States own fault, they voted for this.

The absolute scary part is that Trump still has 10's of millions of supporters across the entire country which the voting process showcased.

At-least here in Australia when I met the our leader I simply refused to shake his hand and say to him "I think you are a fucking wanker". - But it never went further than that, Trump would be on twitter having a bitch fit by comparison saying how unfairly treated he is or something narcissistic.

Once you delve into violence and abuse, I think you should forfeit your freedom and go to jail, clearly you need some mental health support or something, the USA needs to sort itself out.

As for China... At the moment there is a massive trade pivot occurring, the world is now start to look towards nations like Vietnam and Malaysia for manufacturing... But India is going to be the go-to, being the counterbalance to China and is also a democracy.
Could be an interesting 10+ years.



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Pemalite said:

Lets be realistic here... Trump was elected for the people, by the people.
Everything that has occurred over the last 4 years is the United States own fault, they voted for this.

The absolute scary part is that Trump still has 10's of millions of supporters across the entire country which the voting process showcased.

At-least here in Australia when I met the our leader I simply refused to shake his hand and say to him "I think you are a fucking wanker". - But it never went further than that, Trump would be on twitter having a bitch fit by comparison saying how unfairly treated he is or something narcissistic.

Once you delve into violence and abuse, I think you should forfeit your freedom and go to jail, clearly you need some mental health support or something, the USA needs to sort itself out.

As for China... At the moment there is a massive trade pivot occurring, the world is now start to look towards nations like Vietnam and Malaysia for manufacturing... But India is going to be the go-to, being the counterbalance to China and is also a democracy.
Could be an interesting 10+ years.

Sad but true. As much as it's nice the bastard got voted out, the reality is that 71 Million people voted for him in this election. 71 million people believed that either the things he stood for were ideal or at least not dealbreakers. 71 million people agree with him, and that's sad. It only means that, as time goes on, America is just going to get increasingly fractured until another civil war breaks out. 



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Pemalite said:

Once you delve into violence and abuse, I think you should forfeit your freedom and go to jail, clearly you need some mental health support or something, the USA needs to sort itself out.

The US are on the same path Argentina was about 100 years ago. Back then, Argentina actually was one of the richest and most developed countries in the world, topping out at the 7th spot by GDP per capita in 1908. But after the 1920's and with the great depression, violence started to rise in the country and with it, Argentina started to decline more and more. Peron briefly managed to bring Argentina back, but he overextended the economy with protectionism and rampant debt, and his brutal methods undermined him right from the start and became his, and considering what was to follow, Argentina's demise. Now Argentina isn't even part of the top 50 in GDP per capita anymore, and the outlook is increasingly bad as the economy has been shrinking over the last 10 years.

Doesn't look to good, does it? And it all started in a similar fashion to what is happening right now in the US.

Pemalite said:

As for China... At the moment there is a massive trade pivot occurring, the world is now start to look towards nations like Vietnam and Malaysia for manufacturing... But India is going to be the go-to, being the counterbalance to China and is also a democracy.
Could be an interesting 10+ years.

Don't forget Africa. While this ain't just one country, the increased stability of most African nations make them increasingly interesting for investors, specially for manufacturing stuff for which China has become too expensive already (for instance the "made in China" crap you could find 20-30 years ago) and India or south east Asia ain't too much of a difference to be worth going there. China is also heavily investing into these countries with generous loans and strong international aid, and as a result these African nations also start increasingly to buy their material from China (yes, international aid is not just free handouts, it can help the own economy a lot as it's basically an investment into a poorer nation).

Edit: Widget about Argentina's "growth"in GDP by capita doesn't seem to work outside editing or quoting, so maybe the link will: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KN?locations=AR

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 08 January 2021