sundin13 said:
Pyro as Bill said:
Rioting does change things so opposing rioting because you think it's fruitless is wrong.

I don't see why police stations/cars aren't legitimate targets of protest/arson and if riot police are ready for a riot they should be able to handle the odd petrol bomb.

Looting hurts the cause and shouldn't be happening if local businesses are paying protection to the people who are actually able to protect their businesses.

I don't get why every incident of police brutality against a black person is racialised. I mean, I do get it but sometimes there are times when it's just because some/most police officers are cunts. Look at the protests in France. You don't have to be black to be beaten or murdered by police officers.

My own (white) city had police brutality riots in the 80s. No looting because of protection money. The police would go to a poor part of town and if any teenager gave them backchat or disrespected them then 6-8 grown men would put kids in the back of the van and beat the shit out of them without consequence.

The rioting should be about letting them know that it will cost them more $$$$ if they don't change their ways. The looting needs to stop.

You can't use logic to explain anger. It isn't about logic. It isn't about saying "How do I best affect change?". It is the cries of the voiceless boiling over. While we can very much criticize these actions, we must acknowledge that "riots do not develop out of thin air" (MLK) and we need to address these causes instead of just attacking those who are rightfully angry.

I will also say that I have an issue with the idea that police brutality is an issue with the police officers. I don't believe it is. This isn't one bad apple, or several bad apples, or dozens of bad apples, it is a poisoned orchard. It is the system itself which creates this injustice, not individual action. We don't just need to throw every cop who crosses a line in jail, we need to fundamentally change our policing systems. It is the system itself that is broken and these injustices will never be corrected if we keep treating the symptom as if it was the cause.

PS: These were largely just general things that I wanted to say as a result of your post, not necessary direct rebuttals to points you had made.

Policing is supposed to be by consent so take their budget and give it to the local gangsters if that's what it takes for the looting to stop and the public to not have to worry about being murdered by state officials.

Local gangsters made up most early police forces because the state realised how much power they could get by putting them on the payroll. I've had enough police and gangster dealings to know what sort of person becomes a police officer (there are exceptions) and the two aren't as different as they'd like to think.



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SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

1). By the way, in your post, you mentioned the woman in the wheelchair was pretending to be disabled: how do we know this?

2). In related news, preliminary findings in George Floyd's autopsy showed no asphyxia or strangulation.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf

1). Video evidence shows her later walking around without the need for the high end motor powered wheelchair. While it's possible she may still be partially ambulatory despite an infirmity, it seems a little strange that she would eventually start walking around during the middle of a riot where she could have easily been injured (and she was already assaulted as seen in the earlier video) and/or her expensive wheelchair would have been stolen (it was in view of the camera footage).

2). Do you know what else it said in the very next paragraph? "Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous."  I'm adding this because I simply wanted to provide further information for anyone who's reading your post and potentially comes away with an inaccurate impression.

1) Care to provide this video? I'd like to watch it.

2) My post included a link, it's right there for people to read through right after the "In related news, preliminary findings...no asphyxia or strangulation", it's hard to miss. A plethora of information that could not be copy-pasted, unfortunately so best bet is for people to click the link themselves.

I cannot say the same for your post about stabbings: no link for further information. For whatever reason, there was no mention of the objects thrown at the woman's head or the beatings to her head but certainly a mention of her stabbing. It paints an incomplete picture so I knew then and there I just had to get some video footage for people to be able to watch rather than learn about this stabbing incident secondhand.

I'm actually hesitant to call it a stabbing, she never managed to stab anyone based on the videos I watched. She does swing it at empty air before getting blasted with fire extinguisher and getting hit in the head with objects. You called it a stabbing regardless, perhaps you have videos of these successful stabbings?



KLAMarine said:
Otter said:

>On the bit about statistics, ever heard of 'correlation does not equal causation'?

"Regarding the second part, so you think this person is a genuine protestor? Not everything has to be argument, to me and many others, his demeanor and prep seems way off, make a judgement call for yourself."

>I really don't know and who gives a shit? He smashed some windows and then pissed off. Why should anyone besides that store honestly care!?

"But you'll notice that he stands alone out like a sore thumb in all the footage you'll see."

>Yeah, I think the umbrella does that.

"The man wore clean, full-body coverings. He had a large umbrella to shelter him from overhead surveillance. He had one job. He brought a hammer. He was calm & methodical. He acted, then exited, avoiding to engage." Like its just strange and reason for suspicion"

>Still proves nothing beyond his being suspicious.

"Proves". No one is proving anything in this discussion. You ridiculed the idea that this could be an undercover officer.

If police or any other agency are using agents to fuel unrest, participate riots etc. That's in the public interests and it's the only reason we are looking at this video.

"ever heard of 'correlation does not equal causation'?"

Of course but you're not providing any alternate cause for the disparity whilst there's been strong and long documentation of racism in  the police force & the US in general.

Just last week this woman went viral hysterically pretending to be in danger whilst using the mans' race as a weapon against him, because she belives him being "African American" will trigger a more imminent and threatening response from the police.

And at the very least we can say the "cause" is the action of the police and there are many documentated cases, 3 from the last week alone, where they kill unarmed people through reckless actions. They were all black but that doesn't even matter, there needs to be accountability.

And honestly you intent of roadblocking these conversations without having any actual believe or stance is also part of the problem. What exactly are you arguing? That racism doesn't exist? I'm personally going to be more selective about how I spend my energy,  so I won't respond to you again but please think long and hard about what your actual stance is before committing to this endless devil's advocacy. 

Last edited by Otter - on 30 May 2020

Pyro as Bill said:
Rioting does change things so opposing rioting because you think it's fruitless is wrong.

I don't see why police stations/cars aren't legitimate targets of protest/arson and if riot police are ready for a riot they should be able to handle the odd petrol bomb.

Looting hurts the cause and shouldn't be happening if local businesses are paying protection to the people who are actually able to protect their businesses.

I don't get why every incident of police brutality against a black person is racialised. I mean, I do get it but sometimes there are times when it's just because some/most police officers are cunts. Look at the protests in France. You don't have to be black to be beaten or murdered by police officers.

My own (white) city had police brutality riots in the 80s. No looting because of protection money. The police would go to a poor part of town and if any teenager gave them backchat or disrespected them then 6-8 grown men would put kids in the back of the van and beat the shit out of them without consequence.

The rioting should be about letting them know that it will cost them more $$$$ if they don't change their ways. The looting needs to stop.

It doesn't cost the police a penny. It costs the taxpayer!

Those rioters are screwing over every tax paying citizen there. And as for why police stations/cars aren't legitimate targets... because you shouldn't discriminate against somebody based on what they are. Isn't that... kind of the whole point people are upset in the first place? Two wrongs don't make a right.



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Last edited by Phoenix20 - on 30 May 2020

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Phoenix20 said:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/29/derek-chauvin-arrested-george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-officer/
The officer in the video kneeling on George Floyd's neck has been charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter.

Charged but not yet convicted. Justice has yet to be served, stay vigilant! 



Phoenix20 said:

It is sad,those that did this deserve a serious punishment.



Ka-pi96 said:
Pyro as Bill said:
Rioting does change things so opposing rioting because you think it's fruitless is wrong.

I don't see why police stations/cars aren't legitimate targets of protest/arson and if riot police are ready for a riot they should be able to handle the odd petrol bomb.

Looting hurts the cause and shouldn't be happening if local businesses are paying protection to the people who are actually able to protect their businesses.

I don't get why every incident of police brutality against a black person is racialised. I mean, I do get it but sometimes there are times when it's just because some/most police officers are cunts. Look at the protests in France. You don't have to be black to be beaten or murdered by police officers.

My own (white) city had police brutality riots in the 80s. No looting because of protection money. The police would go to a poor part of town and if any teenager gave them backchat or disrespected them then 6-8 grown men would put kids in the back of the van and beat the shit out of them without consequence.

The rioting should be about letting them know that it will cost them more $$$$ if they don't change their ways. The looting needs to stop.

It doesn't cost the police a penny. It costs the taxpayer!

Those rioters are screwing over every tax paying citizen there. And as for why police stations/cars aren't legitimate targets... because you shouldn't discriminate against somebody based on what they are. Isn't that... kind of the whole point people are upset in the first place? Two wrongs don't make a right.

This. I don't think anyone is saying what the cops did was right, but we can't burn down buildings and destroy small businesses. This hurts black people too. No company will want to do business in these areas again which will cause more problems down the road. Not to mention this isn't a good time with the corona virus situation going on.

Last edited by Snoopy - on 30 May 2020

Otter said:
KLAMarine said:

>On the bit about statistics, ever heard of 'correlation does not equal causation'?

"Regarding the second part, so you think this person is a genuine protestor? Not everything has to be argument, to me and many others, his demeanor and prep seems way off, make a judgement call for yourself."

>I really don't know and who gives a shit? He smashed some windows and then pissed off. Why should anyone besides that store honestly care!?

"But you'll notice that he stands alone out like a sore thumb in all the footage you'll see."

>Yeah, I think the umbrella does that.

"The man wore clean, full-body coverings. He had a large umbrella to shelter him from overhead surveillance. He had one job. He brought a hammer. He was calm & methodical. He acted, then exited, avoiding to engage." Like its just strange and reason for suspicion"

>Still proves nothing beyond his being suspicious.

"Proves". No one is proving anything in this discussion. You ridiculed the idea that this could be an undercover officer.

If police or any other agency are using agents to fuel unrest, participate riots etc. That's in the public interests and it's the only reason we are looking at this video.

"ever heard of 'correlation does not equal causation'?"

Of course but you're not providing any alternate cause for the disparity whilst there's been strong and long documentation of racism in  the police force & the US in general.

Just last week this woman went viral hysterically pretending to be in danger whilst using the mans' race as a weapon against him, because she belives him being "African American" will trigger a more imminent and threatening response from the police.

And at the very least we can say the "cause" is the action of the police and there are many documentated cases, 3 from the last week alone, where they kill unarmed people through reckless actions. They were all black but that doesn't even matter, there needs to be accountability.

And honestly you intent of roadblocking these conversations without having any actual believe or stance is also part of the problem. What exactly are you arguing? That racism doesn't exist? I'm personally going to be more selective about how I spend my energy,  so I won't respond to you again but please think long and hard about what your actual stance is before committing to this endless devil's advocacy. 

"Proves". No one is proving anything in this discussion. You ridiculed the idea that this could be an undercover officer.

If police or any other agency are using agents to fuel unrest, participate riots etc. That's in the public interests and it's the only reason we are looking at this video.

>I'm ridiculing the piss-poor evidence being forwarded for this umbrella fella being an agent of some sort.

Of course but you're not providing any alternate cause for the disparity whilst there's been strong and long documentation of racism in  the police force & the US in general.

>Alternate cause for disparity for what? Blacks being over represented in use of force cases?..

Ugh, I don't like talking about people in such a generalized manner but... here's one guess: the longstanding stigma against police and their being racist colors the perception of far too many in black communities, a perception driven in part by media focus on cases of police brutality against black victims while similar cases of police brutality against white victims go under reported. As a result, interactions between blacks and police are more likely to take a turn for the worse since the black individual may feel they have more to fear than a white individual.

Just last week this woman went viral hysterically pretending to be in danger whilst using the mans' race as a weapon against him, because she belives him being "African American" will trigger a more imminent and threatening response from the police.

>Sounds like this woman subscribes to the belief that police are automatically anti-black. And what happened if/when police showed up? Gonna guess they just shrugged it off and told the two to part ways.

And at the very least we can say the "cause" is the action of the police and there are many documentated cases, 3 from the last week alone, where they kill unarmed people through reckless actions. They were all black but that doesn't even matter, there needs to be accountability.

>I firmly agree there needs to be accountability. From all parties, not just police.

And honestly you intent of roadblocking these conversations without having any actual believe or stance is also part of the problem. What exactly are you arguing? That racism doesn't exist? I'm personally going to be more selective about how I spend my energy,  so I won't respond to you again but please think long and hard about what your actual stance is before committing to this endless devil's advocacy.

>Racism certainly exists in many forms, some forms more malignant than others and I like to think of myself as a guardian against leaps of logic in these sorts of conversations. I'm sure some would classify George Floyd's death as a racist incident while I would not be so hasty: based on my knowledge of the incident, It seems more to me a case of negligence and insufficient officer training.



Immersiveunreality said:
Phoenix20 said:

It is sad,those that did this deserve a serious punishment.

Do they, though? do they, really? 

I think the thing that bugs me most about this is that it proves that complacency and pacifism is nice...when it works. but when it doesn't, what are you supposed to do? People have been collectively doing the 'right thing' for decades, peacefully protesting, spreading awareness through social media and activism, and generally trying their best to not be the bad guys while also trying to make a positive change in the world but it didn't work. 

We live in a world where 'SJW' is an insult. The idea that someone could care about progress or inclusiveness or positive change in the world is now used as a derogatory term, because many people are happy with how things are, don't want there to be any inclusiveness, are completely fine with the little ways the world fucks over minorities or underprivileged, and actively resist the idea that maybe shit like this is not okay. We live in a world where a lot of people want to make change for the better and be better people, and they're mocked and insulted and bullied for it. we live in a world where it's seemingly okay for black people to be continually shit on becuase, legally, they have equal rights. we live in a world where some people think that racism isn't a thing anymore because - at least on paper - the races are equal when in reality and in practice, they clearly and demonstrably are not, at least in the eyes of the law and apparently your average voter. 

I hate violence. I hate aggressive tactics. I hate the idea that people felt they needed to get violent in order to send a message loud enough for people to hear. 

What I hate even more is that we live in a world this was genuinely the only option some people have left when all other methods failed and yet some people - like you - still vilify them for it. 

Change needs to happen. This is how it happens, because it's very very clear that going through the proper channels wasn't doing shit. Your post here and the posts of the others in this thread saying the rioters are bad people because they're taking a stand against institutionalized oppression are like the idiots who cry to have a dog put down for biting its owner after years of abuse. These riots aren't unprovoked, these riots aren't without justification. They are a way to say that, no, we won't allow this any longer. IT's an absolutely last resort that shows that we've had enough. 

And the fact that your lord dampnut (Donald Trump as an Anagram) actively endorsed the idea of bringing the military to shoot people instead of, you know, addressing the very real underlying problem speaks volumes both for him and his followers. This is exactly why racism thrives in the US. Entitled white brats wiping their hands clean of the issue since they did the bare minimum to no longer keep slaves and give black people legally equal rights while never truly addressing the deeper issue that frankly, there's still a lot of racism in the world and it's very clearly being aimed at black people by white people. 

For fuck's sake, Trump was literally elected on the promise that he'd 'build a wall' to keep Mexicans out and immediately put a travel ban on muslims. HE literally campaigned on blatant racism and enough people voted for him that he actually, somehow won. 

See this riot? Minnesota fucking deserves it and everything else it gets. you know how republicans are always going on about corruption in politics and how they need their guns because they need to form an uprising in the event that the government oppresses them? Yeah, this is exactly that happening. Imagine how much fucking worse it'd be if everyone in that riot actually had automatic rifles. 

I absolutely hate politics, and I absolutely hate that so many people are so willingly ignorant of reality or twist the facts just so they can absolve themselves of any responsibility in an issue like this. I hate that people deflect questions and refuse to address this shit beyond just blindly vilifying everyone involved. Have a spine. Riot. Let the world know that this sort of blatant abuse of power won't go unchecked. 

I'd say 'power to the people', but clearly 'the people' involves people that think the police officer was in the right or bend over backwards to justify the murder of a black man rather than face the facts that racism is still very real and still very much so a pervasive problem in this world.