By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
sethnintendo said:
My question is why would anyone vote Republican unless they are rich. They used social issues like abortion and protests to divide us. Republicans are the only one standing in way of minimum wage increase. We should have made min wage tied to inflation because honestly the dollar isn't worth shit now. Least some states and cities jumped in and offered increase. Pretty soon you will see the poor grab pitch forks or whatever they can to actually form a living. There will be a reckoning and march on wall street was only the beginning.

Republicans in their current form are hard to vote for.  There are plenty of Republicans I despise like Trump, Graham, Cotton Munchin and a lot more.  Some people vote Republican simply for the reason you list abortion, some people are so against it that they could never vote for a Democrat.  Anyone that owns a company should vote Republican, the tax advantages in operating a small company can make or break a company in competitive industries where you are making pennies to the dollar.  A raise in business/corporate tax, can can kill a lot of competition in some industries that might not be making a lot of money, but are making enough to get by.  Another thing that could kill some of these small businesses are unions being forced to pay more benefits and pay.  Republicans are generally against Unions.  Unions do have their place, but they are killers to smaller companies, and again industries where the profit margins are narrow. Truckers vote republican because Democrats in trying to make trucking safe, are making it very expensive to operate forcing companies to buy expensive qualcomm, tracking devices, cameras, changing the amount of time that truckers can drive on the road. This will one day force trucking companies to use driverless trucks because of all the regulations being forced on them.  I myself lean libertarian, but I do agree with some Democrat programs such as Medicare for all, but a 3rd party will never win.  I vote for the candidate and try not to focus purely on what party they are running for.  There's not going to be a reckoning, people have warned of that for decades.  If push came to shove the army would crush anything serious., and while the Army handled it the rich would simply fly to their vacation homes in the UK, New Zealand, South of Spain, Australia etc.



Around the Network
KiigelHeart said:
sundin13 said:

"sometimes"

yeah....

From reading those "facts" from the police (whose account should very much be questioned), it appears that they repeatedly relied on force and threats of force as their primary tactic for getting the situation under control. In other words, they relied heavily on escalation instead of deescalation. It is possible that this was the best way to handle the situation, however, it is very much possible that it was not the ideal way to handle the situation.

According to police handbooks (ex. https://www.seattle.gov/police-manual/title-8---use-of-force/8100---de-escalation ), deescalation typically occurs through four tactics: Communication, time, distance and shielding. While the police did attempt to communicate with him, it is difficult to determine whether that communication was truly deescalatory or if it largely became yelling commands, which can escalate the situation. It does not appear that any of the other three deescalation tactics were utilized. They chose to go "hands-on" with Mr. Blake, initiating the physical confrontation, which immediately escalated the situation.

An approach of deescalation would typically be to step back and give the individual time to calm down and time for back-up to arrive and time to better control the situation by limiting the individual's access to certain escape routes. They also chose not to utilize distance and shielding in this case by getting very close to Mr. Blake, despite the fact that his only weapon was a knife. Even when he was walking to the vehicle, the officers decided to follow him with their guns pointed only about a foot from his back. This deliberately put the officers in a more dangerous situation where deescalation is made more difficult. If they had taken several steps back, they wouldn't have needed to be so ready to act on instantaneous movements and would have been able to give themselves more time to react to a rapidly evolving situation.

I've said this before, but the issue with police shootings doesn't simply revolve around when the police shoot someone who has done nothing wrong. Often there is an issue with how police handle a situation leading to a shooting that is deemed "justified". Interestingly, looking through the Kenosha Police's policies and procedures that they have made public, I could not find any mention of deescalation either as its own heading, or in their use of force procedures. I do see that an executive order was signed in the aftermath of this incident requiring police to receive training in deescalation, which indicates that there was no such requirement for this for some police in the state before the incident.

One rule of deescalation is not to allow it escalate to "moving" situation. So as I stated before, allowing Blake to enter the vehicle was not an option. So this pretty much limits options of shielding and distance. Not to mention a safe distance on someone holding a knife is 30ft+ or something. It simply wasn't an option in this case, unlike Tamir Rice shooting for example.

Distance, shielding, time and stuff like that is usually, by my experience, trained under tactics drills. It's not necessarely written in any procedure. Mention on verbal communication is found in Kenosha Police's policies. 

Anyway, if the suspect doesn't comply to verbal speech or orders, it's pretty much impossible to deescalate. It's a two-way street. This seems to be the case here. Blake was not in the position to not comply.

Allowing him to enter a vehicle very much was an option. It was an option that the police should have tried to avoid, however it was still very much an option. They simply did not have to shoot him at that time. Also recall that this happened after several additional escalations by the police. Again, by not quickly escalating the situation to a "hands-on" approach, they may have received the time necessary to allow back-up to arrive and block in the vehicle. 

And it isn't impossible to deescalate a situation in which an individual doesn't comply with verbal orders. They could at some point change their mind, or the situation may develop in a way which gives the officers more control of a situation. You keep putting forwards these highly subjective absolutes which simply aren't true. Deescalation often isn't something that happens immediately. It is a process. Sometimes it still ends in force, but force when additional personnel arrive and steps are taken to secure the situation is less likely to turn lethal.

Like, you mention that one rule of deescalation is to not allow it to become a moving situation. This is true, but that doesn't mean that murdering the suspect is a good deescalation practice. That is the opposite of deescalation. Lethal force is the highest form of escalation. Higher than allowing someone to get into a vehicle. That said, the officers could have taken steps to prevent it from becoming a moving situation by incapacitating the vehicle or placing themselves between the suspect and the vehicle.

EDIT: I also want to mention that deescalation procedures should very much be a part of a police force's written procedures. It isn't just a tactic for training, it should be considered a prerequisite for force and failure to follow proper deescalation procedures should be grounds for dismissal or retraining. It also should be made part of their handbook so they can communicate to the public what their procedures are and how they handle use of force situations. Kenosha police's public procedures are insufficient at this time and considering deescalation something that is trained but not enshrined in police procedures I believe is completely insufficient to achieve the goals of deescalation. 

Last edited by sundin13 - on 29 August 2020

sethnintendo said:
My question is why would anyone vote Republican unless they are rich. They used social issues like abortion and protests to divide us. Republicans are the only one standing in way of minimum wage increase. We should have made min wage tied to inflation because honestly the dollar isn't worth shit now. Least some states and cities jumped in and offered increase. Pretty soon you will see the poor grab pitch forks or whatever they can to actually form a living. There will be a reckoning and march on wall street was only the beginning.

The abortion position democrats and republicans have is all over the place, for republicans between week 6 to 20, no more abortion is allowed except with few exception. Democrats seems they don't want any limits on abortion.

If you're an Democrat you shouldn't assume you're right, the Scandinavians are the most progressive people that walks this earth, I decided to check Denmarks and Swedens abortion laws. In Denmark after week 12 abortions is severely restricted and for Sweden after week 22 it's not really allowed, week 18 is difficult to do an abortion. Those laws are based completely on science.

"A woman may also be granted an authorization to abort after 12 weeks if certain circumstances are proved to be present (such as poor socioeconomic condition of the woman; risk of birth defects to baby; the pregnancy being the result of rape; mental health risk to mother)."

"However, abortions after the 22nd week may be allowed in the rare cases where the fetus can not survive outside the womb even if it is carried to term."

Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Sweden#Current

For minimun wage, you don't need the federal government for that, there are plenty of blue states that has higher minimun wage.

Last edited by Trumpstyle - on 29 August 2020

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

KiigelHeart said:

Kenosha police has released details about Blake's shooting. It's downloadable here https://www.wispolitics.com under press releases. 

There's absolutely no way officers could let him enter the vehicle, that's out of question. Claims that Blake was not a threat are nonsense. I'd still say officers could've handled it better, maybe go for leg shot from that distance or kick him when he has his back turned to throw him away from the car and buy time. Easy to say in hindsight though and there's still details missing. Hard to see this as race related thing either.

Here are the actual and undisputed facts:

• The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.

• Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.

• Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.

• The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.

• Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.

• The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.

• The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.

• The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.

• Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.

• The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.

• Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.

• The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.

• Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.

• A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.

• Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.

• Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.

The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.”

-End-

A police report or press release are not 'undisputed fact'. Unless you have hard evidence, it's just the cop's word about what happened, and reports are regularly fabricated to protect the officer and department in cases of police brutality (not saying that definitely happened here). The only hard evidence I've seen is the video footage that set off this controversy.



Trumpstyle said:
sethnintendo said:
My question is why would anyone vote Republican unless they are rich. They used social issues like abortion and protests to divide us. Republicans are the only one standing in way of minimum wage increase. We should have made min wage tied to inflation because honestly the dollar isn't worth shit now. Least some states and cities jumped in and offered increase. Pretty soon you will see the poor grab pitch forks or whatever they can to actually form a living. There will be a reckoning and march on wall street was only the beginning.

The abortion position democrats and republicans have is all over the place, for republicans between week 6 to 20, no more abortion is allowed except with few exception. Democrats seems they don't want any limits on abortion.

If you're an Democrat you shouldn't assume you're right, the Scandinavians are the most progressive people that walks this earth, I decided to check Denmarks and Swedens abortion laws. In Denmark after week 12 abortions is severely restricted and for Sweden after week 22 it's not really allowed, week 18 is difficult to do an abortion. Those laws are based completely on science.

"A woman may also be granted an authorization to abort after 12 weeks if certain circumstances are proved to be present (such as poor socioeconomic condition of the woman; risk of birth defects to baby; the pregnancy being the result of rape; mental health risk to mother)."

"However, abortions after the 22nd week may be allowed in the rare cases where the fetus can not survive outside the womb even if it is carried to term."

Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Sweden#Current

For minimun wage, you don't need the federal government for that, there are plenty of blue states that has higher minimun wage.

I feel that is a mischaracterization of both the Republican and Democratic position on abortion. While both sides vary, the Republican position generally wishes for a complete ban on abortion with some disagreement regarding whether cases of rape, incest or the mother's health can provide exceptions.

The Democrat position on the other hand generally wishes for a complete ban on any law restricting abortion prior to the point of viability. After that point, laws may restrict abortion in cases where the mother's health is not at risk. The point of viability is to be determined by the individual's doctor based on the specific facts of the pregnancy, however previous court rulings have estimated this to be about 24-28 weeks. 



Around the Network
Trumpstyle said:
sethnintendo said:
My question is why would anyone vote Republican unless they are rich. They used social issues like abortion and protests to divide us. Republicans are the only one standing in way of minimum wage increase. We should have made min wage tied to inflation because honestly the dollar isn't worth shit now. Least some states and cities jumped in and offered increase. Pretty soon you will see the poor grab pitch forks or whatever they can to actually form a living. There will be a reckoning and march on wall street was only the beginning.

The abortion position democrats and republicans have is all over the place, for republicans between week 6 to 20, no more abortion is allowed except with few exception. Democrats seems they don't want any limits on abortion.

If you're an Democrat you shouldn't assume you're right, the Scandinavians are the most progressive people that walks this earth, I decided to check Denmarks and Swedens abortion laws. In Denmark after week 12 abortions is severely restricted and for Sweden after week 22 it's not really allowed, week 18 is difficult to do an abortion. Those laws are based completely on science.

"A woman may also be granted an authorization to abort after 12 weeks if certain circumstances are proved to be present (such as poor socioeconomic condition of the woman; risk of birth defects to baby; the pregnancy being the result of rape; mental health risk to mother)."

"However, abortions after the 22nd week may be allowed in the rare cases where the fetus can not survive outside the womb even if it is carried to term."

Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Sweden#Current

For minimun wage, you don't need the federal government for that, there are plenty of blue states that has higher minimun wage.

Don't care about abortion in my mind too many humans on this Earth.  

As for Scandinavian comment.  Least they have an oil fund.  What the fuck does USA have?   USA couldn't balance a budget if it wanted to. 

You know it isn't a spending problem but tax revenue problem.   We are running massive deficits for shit wars started by Bush Jr and tax cuts to rich.   The government needs revenue yet Republicans want to bleed the government dry.  How is are maxed out credit card doing?   Trump said he was king of debt and he is proving it.   We used to have high tax rate up till Eisenhower administration and rich seemed to survive just fine.   Add Reagan, Bush Jr, Trump tax cuts the rich are making out like bandits.



This whole notion military was weak under Obama is bullshit. We spend more than top countries on military combined. Where is all that money going no fucking clue. Remember right before Iraq war happened pentagon couldn't explain where all money disappeared. Maybe the military needs an audit.



KiigelHeart said:

Kenosha police has released details about Blake's shooting. It's downloadable here https://www.wispolitics.com under press releases. 

There's absolutely no way officers could let him enter the vehicle, that's out of question. Claims that Blake was not a threat are nonsense. I'd still say officers could've handled it better, maybe go for leg shot from that distance or kick him when he has his back turned to throw him away from the car and buy time. Easy to say in hindsight though and there's still details missing. Hard to see this as race related thing either.

Here are the actual and undisputed facts:

• The officers were dispatched to the location due to a complaint that Mr. Blake was attempting to steal the caller’s keys/vehicle.

• Officers were aware of Mr. Blake’s open warrant for felony sexual assault (3rd degree) before they arrived on scene.

• Mr. Blake was not breaking up a fight between two females when officers arrived on scene.

• The silver SUV seen in the widely circulated video was not Mr. Blake’s vehicle.

• Mr. Blake was not unarmed. He was armed with a knife. The officers did not see the knife initially. The officers first saw him holding the knife while they were on the passenger side of the vehicle. The “main” video circulating on the internet shows Mr. Blake with the knife in his left hand when he rounds the front of the car. The officers issued repeated commands for Mr. Blake to drop the knife. He did not comply.

• The officers initially tried to speak with Mr. Blake, but he was uncooperative.

• The officers then began issuing verbal commands to Mr. Blake, but he was non-complaint.

• The officers next went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake, so as to gain compliance and control.

• Mr. Blake actively resisted the officers’ attempt to gain compliance.

• The officers then disengaged and drew their tasers, issuing commands to Mr. Blake that he would be tased if he did not comply.

• Based on his non-compliance, one officer tased Mr. Blake. The taser did not incapacitate Mr. Blake.

• The officers once more went “hands-on” with Mr. Blake; again, trying to gain control of the escalating situation.

• Mr. Blake forcefully fought with the officers, including putting one of the officers in a headlock.

• A second taser (from a different officer than had deployed the initial taser) was then deployed on Mr. Blake. It did not appear to have any impact on him.

• Based on the inability to gain compliance and control after using verbal, physical and less-lethal means, the officers drew their firearms.

• Mr. Blake continued to ignore the officers’ commands, even with the threat of lethal force now present.

The foregoing facts need to be added to the story to correct what is currently out there. As the uncontested facts above demonstrate, the officers involved gave Mr. Blake numerous opportunities to comply. He chose not to. None of the officers involved wished for things to transpire the way it did. It is my hope that truth and transparency will help begin and aid in the healing process.”

-End-

Kenosha police say xyz with no independent corroboration or footage other than a low-rez video that "proves" he was holding the knife. lol

Maybe wait for the state DoJ investigation?



rapsuperstar31 said:
sethnintendo said:
My question is why would anyone vote Republican unless they are rich. They used social issues like abortion and protests to divide us. Republicans are the only one standing in way of minimum wage increase. We should have made min wage tied to inflation because honestly the dollar isn't worth shit now. Least some states and cities jumped in and offered increase. Pretty soon you will see the poor grab pitch forks or whatever they can to actually form a living. There will be a reckoning and march on wall street was only the beginning.

Republicans in their current form are hard to vote for.  There are plenty of Republicans I despise like Trump, Graham, Cotton Munchin and a lot more.  Some people vote Republican simply for the reason you list abortion, some people are so against it that they could never vote for a Democrat.  Anyone that owns a company should vote Republican, the tax advantages in operating a small company can make or break a company in competitive industries where you are making pennies to the dollar.  A raise in business/corporate tax, can can kill a lot of competition in some industries that might not be making a lot of money, but are making enough to get by.  Another thing that could kill some of these small businesses are unions being forced to pay more benefits and pay.  Republicans are generally against Unions.  Unions do have their place, but they are killers to smaller companies, and again industries where the profit margins are narrow. Truckers vote republican because Democrats in trying to make trucking safe, are making it very expensive to operate forcing companies to buy expensive qualcomm, tracking devices, cameras, changing the amount of time that truckers can drive on the road. This will one day force trucking companies to use driverless trucks because of all the regulations being forced on them.  I myself lean libertarian, but I do agree with some Democrat programs such as Medicare for all, but a 3rd party will never win.  I vote for the candidate and try not to focus purely on what party they are running for.  There's not going to be a reckoning, people have warned of that for decades.  If push came to shove the army would crush anything serious., and while the Army handled it the rich would simply fly to their vacation homes in the UK, New Zealand, South of Spain, Australia etc.

What the hell are you talking about with corporate tax rate.   We just lowered it almost three years ago and you know what it did to GDP and overall health of the economy?   Absolute shit.   It was a sugar high and nothing of matter became of it.   Guess what Obama had more job creation in last three years than Trump's first three by over a million.  



Hundreds of Trump supporters in pickups invaded Portland yesterday. One was killed after some kind of confrontation with a counterprotestor, who fled the scene.