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sethnintendo said:
rapsuperstar31 said:

Republicans in their current form are hard to vote for.  There are plenty of Republicans I despise like Trump, Graham, Cotton Munchin and a lot more.  Some people vote Republican simply for the reason you list abortion, some people are so against it that they could never vote for a Democrat.  Anyone that owns a company should vote Republican, the tax advantages in operating a small company can make or break a company in competitive industries where you are making pennies to the dollar.  A raise in business/corporate tax, can can kill a lot of competition in some industries that might not be making a lot of money, but are making enough to get by.  Another thing that could kill some of these small businesses are unions being forced to pay more benefits and pay.  Republicans are generally against Unions.  Unions do have their place, but they are killers to smaller companies, and again industries where the profit margins are narrow. Truckers vote republican because Democrats in trying to make trucking safe, are making it very expensive to operate forcing companies to buy expensive qualcomm, tracking devices, cameras, changing the amount of time that truckers can drive on the road. This will one day force trucking companies to use driverless trucks because of all the regulations being forced on them.  I myself lean libertarian, but I do agree with some Democrat programs such as Medicare for all, but a 3rd party will never win.  I vote for the candidate and try not to focus purely on what party they are running for.  There's not going to be a reckoning, people have warned of that for decades.  If push came to shove the army would crush anything serious., and while the Army handled it the rich would simply fly to their vacation homes in the UK, New Zealand, South of Spain, Australia etc.

What the hell are you talking about with corporate tax rate.   We just lowered it almost three years ago and you know what it did to GDP and overall health of the economy?   Absolute shit.   It was a sugar high and nothing of matter became of it.   Guess what Obama had more job creation in last three years than Trump's first three by over a million.  

As a small business owner at the time, the tax rate was huge it saved the company quite a bit of money.  We held on to the money briefly to see if it was going to taken away at some point by being over turned.  When it did not we reinvested that money back into the company, not increasing premiums for our employees for healthcare even though healthcare costs increased by more than 10% on the year.  We spent money our software to make the lives easier for our employees.  And lastly we gave every employee a one time $1500 bonus.  I agree that the corporate tax rate can go back to where it was, and companies will be fine but it did give a bit of breathing room for smaller companies.  For the Amazons of the world it absolutely was a screw job.



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Finally found footage of the first Kenosha shooting.


Looks like self-defense to me. If someone has video of the second shooting, I'd like to see that too.

Based on this, calling it a terrorist attack or whatever is counterfactual.

KiigelHeart said:


Edit. Here's all the footage from the shooting and the kid turning himself in. I warn you though, it's graphic content, nstw.

https://files.catbox.moe/t64m9x.mp4

What the actual fuck..

Mr_Destiny said:
Finally found footage of the first Kenosha shooting.

Looks like self-defense to me. If someone has video of the second shooting, I'd like to see that too.

Based on this, calling it a terrorist attack or whatever is counterfactual.

I posted the above link over 3 days ago buddy. Footage of both shootings.



Mr_Destiny said:
Finally found footage of the first Kenosha shooting.

Looks like self-defense to me. If someone has video of the second shooting, I'd like to see that too.

Based on this, calling it a terrorist attack or whatever is counterfactual.

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

Self defense can not be invoked in a situation of your causing. So, we would have to know why he is being chased, and if he instigated the situation.

There's also the fact that he is currently engaging in an illegal act, as he has a firearm which he, as a 17 year old, can not lawfully do (probably to avoid situations just like this one). That may or may not defeat a self defense claim. He also has been charged with two counts of reckless endangerment. That's a felony, and if you are in the progress of a felony, you generally cannot invoke self-defense.

Self defense also has to be proportionate to the threat facing you. Just because someone is going to "assault" you does not mean you can kill them. The first person shot was unarmed and threw a plastic bag. Going from there to "he's going to take my gun and kill me" is a pretty big leap. A jury can decide if that leap was warranted.

The second person was responding after he fired shots. The most reasonable interpretation of his actions is that he's trying to disarm the person who just shot someone. "They are going to take my gun and kill me" again doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation to me, but that's for the jury to decide. 

Don't honestly see how anyone can conclude that this was, legally, self-defense based on what we see. At the very least we'd need to see what happened immediately before.



JWeinCom said:
Mr_Destiny said:
Finally found footage of the first Kenosha shooting.

Looks like self-defense to me. If someone has video of the second shooting, I'd like to see that too.

Based on this, calling it a terrorist attack or whatever is counterfactual.

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

Self defense can not be invoked in a situation of your causing. So, we would have to know why he is being chased, and if he instigated the situation.

There's also the fact that he is currently engaging in an illegal act, as he has a firearm which he, as a 17 year old, can not lawfully do (probably to avoid situations just like this one). That may or may not defeat a self defense claim. He also has been charged with two counts of reckless endangerment. That's a felony, and if you are in the progress of a felony, you generally cannot invoke self-defense.

Self defense also has to be proportionate to the threat facing you. Just because someone is going to "assault" you does not mean you can kill them. The first person shot was unarmed and threw a plastic bag. Going from there to "he's going to take my gun and kill me" is a pretty big leap. A jury can decide if that leap was warranted.

The second person was responding after he fired shots. The most reasonable interpretation of his actions is that he's trying to disarm the person who just shot someone. "They are going to take my gun and kill me" again doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation to me, but that's for the jury to decide. 

Don't honestly see how anyone can conclude that this was, legally, self-defense based on what we see. At the very least we'd need to see what happened immediately before.

There is enough information out there making it evident Kyle was acting in self defense. DonutOperator summed it up in two videos. Including what lead up to the violent outcome.

Getting chased by a violent mob armed with all sorts of weapons and criminal records, a gun being fired behind him while running away. I'm taking a wild guess, but i think Kyles intention was not to end up like this guy...

...who got attacked and kicked unconscious by "peaceful protesters" after he was defending a transsexual man.

Or that 71 yo man...

https://www.fox6now.com/news/broke-his-jaw-man-in-his-70s-attacked-while-trying-to-protect-burning-kenosha-mattress-store

Or the black security guard that was killed in a live stream as he tried to prevent "peaceful protesters" from looting.

JWeinCom said:

To say the protests are "in support of criminals" is an incredibly poor and misleading way to phrase it.

For example, I support a rapist's right to a fair trial. To say based on this that I support rapists would be incredibly misleading.

Similarly, if someone supports George Floyd's right not to have a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, it is misleading to say that they support criminals. Supporting the fair treatment of criminals and suspected criminals would be more accurate. 

The criminal's share of the blame ends where excessive force begins. That's simply by definition. If someone has legitimately committed a crime, it is their fault if they get arrested. If they were not posing a threat and are shot or killed, that part is 100% on the the police.

To constantly try to shift the blame, not grounded on facts, but an unhealthy amount of misinformation, that is misleading and "in support of criminals".



Hunting Season is done...

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Zoombael said:
JWeinCom said:

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

Self defense can not be invoked in a situation of your causing. So, we would have to know why he is being chased, and if he instigated the situation.

There's also the fact that he is currently engaging in an illegal act, as he has a firearm which he, as a 17 year old, can not lawfully do (probably to avoid situations just like this one). That may or may not defeat a self defense claim. He also has been charged with two counts of reckless endangerment. That's a felony, and if you are in the progress of a felony, you generally cannot invoke self-defense.

Self defense also has to be proportionate to the threat facing you. Just because someone is going to "assault" you does not mean you can kill them. The first person shot was unarmed and threw a plastic bag. Going from there to "he's going to take my gun and kill me" is a pretty big leap. A jury can decide if that leap was warranted.

The second person was responding after he fired shots. The most reasonable interpretation of his actions is that he's trying to disarm the person who just shot someone. "They are going to take my gun and kill me" again doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation to me, but that's for the jury to decide. 

Don't honestly see how anyone can conclude that this was, legally, self-defense based on what we see. At the very least we'd need to see what happened immediately before.

There is enough information out there making it evident Kyle was acting in self defense. DonutOperator summed it up in two videos. Including what lead up to the violent outcome.

Getting chased by a violent mob armed with all sorts of weapons and criminal records, a gun being fired behind him while running away. I'm taking a wild guess, but i think Kyles intention was not to end up like this guy...

...who got attacked and kicked unconscious by "peaceful protesters" after he was defending a transsexual man.

Or that 71 yo man...

https://www.fox6now.com/news/broke-his-jaw-man-in-his-70s-attacked-while-trying-to-protect-burning-kenosha-mattress-store

Or the black security guard that was killed in a live stream as he tried to prevent "peaceful protesters" from looting.

JWeinCom said:

To say the protests are "in support of criminals" is an incredibly poor and misleading way to phrase it.

For example, I support a rapist's right to a fair trial. To say based on this that I support rapists would be incredibly misleading.

Similarly, if someone supports George Floyd's right not to have a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, it is misleading to say that they support criminals. Supporting the fair treatment of criminals and suspected criminals would be more accurate. 

The criminal's share of the blame ends where excessive force begins. That's simply by definition. If someone has legitimately committed a crime, it is their fault if they get arrested. If they were not posing a threat and are shot or killed, that part is 100% on the the police.

To constantly try to shift the blame, not grounded on facts, but an unhealthy amount of misinformation, that is misleading and "in support of criminals".

Not going to view the videos, so you'll have to summarize the key points and show the evidence backing them up. Interested in primary sources, not commentary. Unless this youtuber has access to evidence that the rest of us do not, or is a scholar of Wisconsin criminal law, his commentary doesn't interest me.

Your response to the other post is a complete non-sequitur. 

Last edited by JWeinCom - on 31 August 2020

KiigelHeart said:
KiigelHeart said:

Edit. Here's all the footage from the shooting and the kid turning himself in. I warn you though, it's graphic content, nstw.

https://files.catbox.moe/t64m9x.mp4

What the actual fuck..

Mr_Destiny said:
Finally found footage of the first Kenosha shooting.


I posted the above link over 3 days ago buddy. Footage of both shootings.

My bad, I must've missed it.

JWeinCom said:
Mr_Destiny said:
Looks like self-defense to me. If someone has video of the second shooting, I'd like to see that too.

Based on this, calling it a terrorist attack or whatever is counterfactual.

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

Self defense can not be invoked in a situation of your causing. So, we would have to know why he is being chased, and if he instigated the situation.

There's also the fact that he is currently engaging in an illegal act, as he has a firearm which he, as a 17 year old, can not lawfully do (probably to avoid situations just like this one). That may or may not defeat a self defense claim. He also has been charged with two counts of reckless endangerment. That's a felony, and if you are in the progress of a felony, you generally cannot invoke self-defense.

Self defense also has to be proportionate to the threat facing you. Just because someone is going to "assault" you does not mean you can kill them. The first person shot was unarmed and threw a plastic bag. Going from there to "he's going to take my gun and kill me" is a pretty big leap. A jury can decide if that leap was warranted.

The second person was responding after he fired shots. The most reasonable interpretation of his actions is that he's trying to disarm the person who just shot someone. "They are going to take my gun and kill me" again doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation to me, but that's for the jury to decide. 

Don't honestly see how anyone can conclude that this was, legally, self-defense based on what we see. At the very least we'd need to see what happened immediately before.

Wow, I didn't know there were so many complicating factors to self-defense. The first-degree "intentional killing" (?) charge struck me as ambitious, to say the least, but now it makes sense. And for the record, the second shooting never seemed justified to me. Thanks for the explanation.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h1wE9gk1kc

Lawyer basically concludes that the shooting of Blake was not unjustified.

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 31 August 2020

Mr_Destiny said:
KiigelHeart said:

I posted the above link over 3 days ago buddy. Footage of both shootings.

My bad, I must've missed it.

JWeinCom said:

Can't see how you came to that conclusion.

Self defense can not be invoked in a situation of your causing. So, we would have to know why he is being chased, and if he instigated the situation.

There's also the fact that he is currently engaging in an illegal act, as he has a firearm which he, as a 17 year old, can not lawfully do (probably to avoid situations just like this one). That may or may not defeat a self defense claim. He also has been charged with two counts of reckless endangerment. That's a felony, and if you are in the progress of a felony, you generally cannot invoke self-defense.

Self defense also has to be proportionate to the threat facing you. Just because someone is going to "assault" you does not mean you can kill them. The first person shot was unarmed and threw a plastic bag. Going from there to "he's going to take my gun and kill me" is a pretty big leap. A jury can decide if that leap was warranted.

The second person was responding after he fired shots. The most reasonable interpretation of his actions is that he's trying to disarm the person who just shot someone. "They are going to take my gun and kill me" again doesn't seem like a reasonable interpretation to me, but that's for the jury to decide. 

Don't honestly see how anyone can conclude that this was, legally, self-defense based on what we see. At the very least we'd need to see what happened immediately before.

Wow, I didn't know there were so many complicating factors to self-defense. The first-degree "intentional killing" (?) charge struck me as ambitious, to say the least, but now it makes sense. And for the record, the second shooting never seemed justified to me. Thanks for the explanation.

As far as I know, Wisconsin doesn't have a first degree intentional killing statute, but they do have a first degree homicide statute. But, the prosecutor can file that as a charge and the defense can have it knocked down. So, it is ambitious, but it's not completely impossible so that's where they'd start. Especially because in most criminal cases the defendant will plea, and you want to give them something to plea down from.

Also, keep in mind what I said is an overview, and there's more nuance. Like, if he provoked a situation but took "all reasonable actions" to avoid using lethal force, he still may be able to claim self defense. And Wisconsin has a body of caselaw that would help determine when one might believe they are at risk of great bodily harm.

Personally, I just don't think that the first victim would have randomly charged a person with an AR-15 armed with a plastic bag. I'm not saying that the protesters are like angels who would never hurt a fly, but I'm assuming that the person had some basic sense of self preservation. Something happened that was significant enough to make him charge at an armed teenager, and without knowing what that thing was, I can't really determine how effective a self defense claim would be. 



KLAMarine said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h1wE9gk1kc

When posting a link, especially a long one, add a brief summary and some key points.