By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
Bofferbrauer2 said:
vivster said:

8. Christianity, especially in the US, is physically hurting people by blocking legislation meant to save lives. So I guess by your standards that means Christianity should be banned. I am absolutely with you on that one. But then you should really consider voting another party.

Those Democrats you call extremists would be called moderates in any other country because they demand the humane treatment for people that is already common place everywhere else. You know, those places where people do not have to fear for their life every day.

I'll just leave this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upa2Rk_Y1Z0

I respect her but it's still kinda weird to me. That people have to invoke faith or religion in order to justify treating others with respect. One would think you could just do that without invoking your inner Christ. But I guess you have to to that to get any attention in this Country. A country supposedly built on secularism.

Last edited by vivster - on 11 May 2020

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Around the Network
vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I'll just leave this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upa2Rk_Y1Z0

I respect her but it's still kinda weird to me. That people have to invoke faith or religion in order to justify treating others with respect. One would think you could just do that without invoking your inner Christ. But I guess you have to to that to get any attention in this Country. A country supposedly built on secularism.

I think you misunderstood something there.

She didn't invoke faith to justify treating others with respect, she pointed out that those who do something due to their faith do so generally against the teachings of said faith. As such, she tells them as what they are, hypocrites who want to do something out of their own volition who are just trying to hide it behind their religion.



KLAMarine said:

"If you believe your life is in danger, standing around 10 feet from a guy with a gun is a pretty terrible tactical move."

>Arbery's best move would have been to continue running away, he stands no chance against multiple armed men. But he didn't.

"Again, you have to think of this as a self-defense issue from the victim's perspective. These individuals chasing him with guns had no legal right to apprehend him. As such, I believe a reasonable person in this situation would see themselves as being in danger. In such a situation, he has the legal right to engage physically in self-defense."

>I'm not a lawyer but from the sound of the linked letter, https://georgiarecorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Barnhill-letter-Brunswick-shooting.pdf , the gunmen might have had a legal right to apprehend...

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2006/17/17-4-60.html

We seem to be moving backwards.

The premise of this conversation was the ridiculousness of this DA's letter. The incident in question does not fulfill the stated conditions required to allow a "citizen arrest". Since the situation did not call for a citizen's arrest, Arbery had the right to act in self-defense out of a reasonable fear for his safety.

As a side note, even if the situation did call for a citizen's arrest, it is questionable if the actions taken by the actors would have fit within its confines.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
vivster said:

I respect her but it's still kinda weird to me. That people have to invoke faith or religion in order to justify treating others with respect. One would think you could just do that without invoking your inner Christ. But I guess you have to to that to get any attention in this Country. A country supposedly built on secularism.

I think you misunderstood something there.

She didn't invoke faith to justify treating others with respect, she pointed out that those who do something due to their faith do so generally against the teachings of said faith. As such, she tells them as what they are, hypocrites who want to do something out of their own volition who are just trying to hide it behind their religion.

Oh I got that. You have to invoke faith at that point to show the hypocrisy.

I just wanted to highlight the craziness that you are basically forced to do so in a country that has secularism built into their constitution. Having to invoke God in a political debate, be it for or or against human decency.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

I think you misunderstood something there.

She didn't invoke faith to justify treating others with respect, she pointed out that those who do something due to their faith do so generally against the teachings of said faith. As such, she tells them as what they are, hypocrites who want to do something out of their own volition who are just trying to hide it behind their religion.

Oh I got that. You have to invoke faith at that point to show the hypocrisy.

I just wanted to highlight the craziness that you are basically forced to do so in a country that has secularism built into their constitution. Having to invoke God in a political debate, be it for or or against human decency.

Yeah, that can be crazy. Especially when you hear Republicans preaching that all the poor needs is love (from Jesus):



Around the Network
KLAMarine said:
the-pi-guy said:

Again. He tried running away. And then tried wrestling a gun away when that didn't work. 

It's at this point, I have to wonder if the gunmen made their intentions clear: did they tell Arbery that they intended to do a citizens arrest? Or did they just tell Arbery they intended to kill him? Or something else?...

Have we any additional video of the run-ins between the involved parties?

As a black man being hunted by white men carrying guns and knowing you did nothing wrong, I highly doubt he felt safe that getting in their car was going to lead to a fair situation.  It really do not matter what they said, you would believe he felt it was a life or death situation and getting in their car like a kidnapped victim gave him no chance at survival.  By stopping their car and getting out, it escalated the situation further.  Someone with a shotgun comes to you, you have 2 choices run and expose your back or confront that person and fight for your life.  If they wanted to detain him for the police to arrive, they could have kept following him but they did not.  Instead they were going to force him to come with them which is indicated by them getting in front of him and the person with the shot gun getting out.

sethnintendo said:

Klamarine so you except black guy hunted down with shotgun to lay down and give up. What the heck would you do if some shotgun hill billy came up to you with shotgun pointed at you. I would hope you would defend yourself.

If you watch the video of the shooting, you'll notice it was Arbery who did the running up to and fist-swinging.

You are right and he had every right to do so.  You continue to forget the fact that the people had to get out of the car with armed weapons, who pursued him and blocked his escape.  They are not the police or have any authority and because of their action, they killed someone who was innocent.  Its the reason we have police for situations like this because you can respect or at least follow police orders but not anyone who pulls up with guns telling you to stop.



I love how quickly some people are willing to jump on the 'there is no systemic racism in the US' bandwagon. It speaks volumes to a person's character.

This is exactly why 'check your privilege' is a very real concept, one more people need to consider instead of baselessly disregarding it as 'sjw propaganda'



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

 In your earlier post, you speak as though Ahmaud Arbery was being chased...

The video you provided however shows Ahmaud Arbery (I assume he's the lone runner in the white shirt) running towards, not away, the white truck which is oriented away from the runner's location. It doesn't look to me like Arbery was being chased, seems like it's the other way around: Arbery ran up to the truck and tried to wrestle a firearm away.

Well we have some footage of the encounter and it shows Arbery running up to the two gunmen and attempting to wrestle a firearm away...

He was being chased.  The vehicle that the video was being filmed from was also part of that chase.  They had him trapped between them. They've even said they were chasing him down to perform the "citizens arrest".

Source:

"They spotted Arbery running down Buford Road. Travis drove down Burford Road and tried unsuccessfully to cut off Arbery’s escape with the truck, the report said.

The Brunswick man then turned and started “running back in the direction from which he came,” the report said. Travis McMichael again tried without success to cut Arbery off with the truck."

KLAMarine said:

"People can be in front you you after following you."

>True but for whatever reason, Arbery decided to continue running up to a now-stationary vehicle and try to take a gunman's weapon. At that instant, I consider him a chaser rather than a chasee.

1). And towards the end, Arbery is running up to a parked truck where he proceeds to attack a guy with a gun.

I was expecting Arbery to be running away from the gunmen when fire was opened, not towards one he was currently wrestling with.

He was running away from the car that was filming him. 

And again, "They spotted Arbery running down Buford Road. Travis drove down Burford Road and tried unsuccessfully to cut off Arbery’s escape with the truck, the report said.

The Brunswick man then turned and started “running back in the direction from which he came,” the report said. Travis McMichael again tried without success to cut Arbery off with the truck."

A 'citizen's arrest' is not a formal deputization and does not give one the grounds to aim a firearm at an unarmed man.

1). Ah, the old "He was trying to take away my gun before I could shoot him so I had to shoot him so he couldn't take away my gun" defense.

If Gregory McMichael shot Arbery because he 'feared for his safety' then did not Arbery 'fear for his safety' too?  If you fear a man is about to shoot you, would not a logical response be to prevent his ability to shoot you?

KLAMarine said:

"Typically when you are an unarmed individual in a confrontation with an armed individual, your best tactic is to close the distance and disarm that individual."

2). >That depends on the distance. If the distance is long, the armed individual will have plenty of time to point and shoot you and the video shows Arbery having to close a considerable distance before reaching the truck. Arbery had to run to get to the truck even!

"If you believe your life is in danger, standing around 10 feet from a guy with a gun is a pretty terrible tactical move."

>Arbery's best move would have been to continue running away, he stands no chance against multiple armed men. But he didn't.

"Again, you have to think of this as a self-defense issue from the victim's perspective. These individuals chasing him with guns had no legal right to apprehend him. As such, I believe a reasonable person in this situation would see themselves as being in danger. In such a situation, he has the legal right to engage physically in self-defense."

3). >I'm not a lawyer but from the sound of the linked letter, https://georgiarecorder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Barnhill-letter-Brunswick-shooting.pdf , the gunmen might have had a legal right to apprehend...

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2006/17/17-4-60.html

2). Again, he was also running away from the other vehicle.  Further, he as running because....get this...he was out jogging. Let's not forget he did try to run away from the but kept getting cut off.  That's directly according to the McMichael's themselves.

3). Ooh, let's rip this one apart bit by bit, shall we?

A). if the offense is committed in his presence.
Which it was not.  They reported that they attempted a citizens arrest because he matched a description of a suspect wanted for residential burglaries. Meaning they didn't witness a crime.

B). or within his immediate knowledge.
See above. Arbery only matched a description of a suspect.  That is not immediate knowledge of the crime and perpetrator.

C). If the offense is a felony...
But here is the thing...there were no burglaries reported in that neighborhood to begin with.  So not only did the McMiahcael's lie about why they pursued Arbery but no felonies that Arbery was alleged to have committed were reported.

D). and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape,
This is in tandem with C.  That means they had to commit a felony and are now trying escape.  Given what we know about C, D cannot apply either.

E). a private person may arrest him...
Arrest doesn't mean execute.  There is no provision in that law that protects you from liability if you kill someone in the act of performing a citizens arrest.

F). upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
Which they did not have. Further, if Arbery did happen to commit burglaries in that neighborhood and the local home owners did not file any police reports, that gives the suspicion that they intended to carry out justice on their own. And vigilantism is illegal in the state of Georgia.

sethnintendo said:
Friend said supposedly video of him snooping around at construction site. I haven't seen it so can't say for sure. Even if he was up to no good they handled it way wrong.

Correct.  There is another video of him walking through the wood framing of new home under construction. While some can argue this is trespassing (which is not a felony which rules out a proper citizen's arrest), it's not an uncommon action taken by people who are curious.  I used to check out homes under construction when I worked nearby to them. 

Further, Arbery was pursuing a career as an electrician according to his mother and studied in the electrical systems program at South Georgia Technical College a few years ago.  I'm speculating here but a new home job site would easily pique the interests of a potential electrician. 

I still need to see what sort of verbal interaction occurred between the gunmen and Arbery.

Did the gunmen inform Arbery that they were calling the police and ask him to stop for police?

Runa216 said:
I love how quickly some people are willing to jump on the 'there is no systemic racism in the US' bandwagon. It speaks volumes to a person's character.

This is exactly why 'check your privilege' is a very real concept, one more people need to consider instead of baselessly disregarding it as 'sjw propaganda'

Define 'systemic racism'...



So feeble, so desperate.



I still need to see what sort of verbal interaction occurred between the gunmen and Arbery.

Did the gunmen inform Arbery that they were calling the police and ask him to stop for police?

Explain to me why that would make a difference.  Why would Arbery have any reason to believe armed people trying to get him to stop without the police actually being there.  It really do not matter what they said to him, their careless actions caused them to kill an innocent man.