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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

Jumpin said:

Additionally, the US declaration of Independence - which states the US revolutionary plan (All people equal, the right to overthrow governments who stand in the way of equality and people’s rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). 

It would be inconsistent with the US experiment to block people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness based on simple documentation status. To place the status of “illegal” on the basis of documentation seems opposed to the US revolutionary spirit and the core value of that nation.

And I quote: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it.”

But, of course, the people on the left in the US have less of the revolutionary spirit than their founding fathers.

It makes me wonder: The first step was independence from the Empire. The second was the abolition of slavery. The third step was universal suffrage and the civil rights movement. The next phase of that US experiment is currently in progress, the next big conflict between the right-wing against those on the right side of history.

I rambled on, it’s late, almost morning (we don’t sleep here). I wish you people of the US good luck in your revolutionary experiment. This election will hopefully put things back on track.

Oh my God, you have no idea how much it frustrates me. We have an opportunity to commit a revolutionary act in the election of Sanders, and we're too scared to try.



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Jumpin said:
Snoopy said:

We shall see, also that would include Illegal immigrants because they are considered Americans as well by the Democrats. 

I don’t think that's accurate. The Democratic politicians said this included undocumented immigrants, but not illegal immigrants (as in those who are in the US for the purpose of criminal activity).

Additionally, the US declaration of Independence - which states the US revolutionary plan (All people equal, the right to overthrow governments who stand in the way of equality and people’s rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). 

It would be inconsistent with the US experiment to block people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness based on simple documentation status. To place the status of “illegal” on the basis of documentation seems opposed to the US revolutionary spirit and the core value of that nation.

And I quote: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it.”

But, of course, the people on the left in the US have less of the revolutionary spirit than their founding fathers.

It makes me wonder: The first step was independence from the Empire. The second was the abolition of slavery. The third step was universal suffrage and the civil rights movement. The next phase of that US experiment is currently in progress, the next big conflict between the right-wing against those on the right side of history.

I rambled on, it’s late, almost morning (we don’t sleep here). I wish you people of the US good luck in your revolutionary experiment. This election will hopefully put things back on track.

Every nation has, and should have, borders, that they enforce - Even the free and equal United States. Why should we in the US exclusively be exempt from this? If you don't have some sort of boundaries, well.. you won't have a United States much longer, and then what's the point? 

I'm all for an easier path to legal citizenship, but illegal crossings are, well, illegal.. I'd love to let everybody in (who isn't a criminal) who would be a possitive influence to society that want to escape a shittier life for a chance at prosperity here, but it's like they said on South Park - if we let everyone in who wants to come in, we'll eventually end up being shitty too. You just cannot have a sustainable country with a billion residents without the vast marjotiry (legal AND illegal) living in extreme poverty), at least I don't see it. We already have millions struggling to make a living wage here. Is it really a good idea to add 10s of millions more? At what point does the fabric of the country become torn apart completely? 

And I'm so done with that "right side of history," that cringeworthy phrase. It just sounds a little creepily cultish and authoritarian to me. Take it from a guy who have studied history thoroughly and has graduated university w/a history degree. Many people who are 100% convinced they were on the "right side of history" end up being very, very much on the WRONG side of it. The "right side of history" is always "to be determined", and usually pretty subjective.

At least from where I sit, I'm seeing the left wing in our country become insanely Authoritarian, intolerant, and pro-censorship. That isn't the right side of history from my lens. 



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

DarthMetalliCube said:
Jumpin said:

I don’t think that's accurate. The Democratic politicians said this included undocumented immigrants, but not illegal immigrants (as in those who are in the US for the purpose of criminal activity).

Additionally, the US declaration of Independence - which states the US revolutionary plan (All people equal, the right to overthrow governments who stand in the way of equality and people’s rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness). 

It would be inconsistent with the US experiment to block people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness based on simple documentation status. To place the status of “illegal” on the basis of documentation seems opposed to the US revolutionary spirit and the core value of that nation.

And I quote: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it.”

But, of course, the people on the left in the US have less of the revolutionary spirit than their founding fathers.

It makes me wonder: The first step was independence from the Empire. The second was the abolition of slavery. The third step was universal suffrage and the civil rights movement. The next phase of that US experiment is currently in progress, the next big conflict between the right-wing against those on the right side of history.

I rambled on, it’s late, almost morning (we don’t sleep here). I wish you people of the US good luck in your revolutionary experiment. This election will hopefully put things back on track.

Every nation has, and should have, borders, that they enforce - Even the free and equal United States. Why should we in the US exclusively be exempt from this? If you don't have some sort of boundaries, well.. you won't have a United States much longer, and then what's the point? 

I'm all for an easier path to legal citizenship, but illegal crossings are, well, illegal.. I'd love to let everybody in (who isn't a criminal) who would be a possitive influence to society that want to escape a shittier life for a chance at prosperity here, but it's like they said on South Park - if we let everyone in who wants to come in, we'll eventually end up being shitty too. You just cannot have a sustainable country with a billion residents without the vast marjotiry (legal AND illegal) living in extreme poverty), at least I don't see it. We already have millions struggling to make a living wage here. Is it really a good idea to add 10s of millions more? At what point does the fabric of the country become torn apart completely? 

And I'm so done with that "right side of history," that cringeworthy phrase. It just sounds a little creepily cultish and authoritarian to me. Take it from a guy who have studied history thoroughly and has graduated university w/a history degree. Many people who are 100% convinced they were on the "right side of history" end up being very, very much on the WRONG side of it. The "right side of history" is always "to be determined", and usually pretty subjective.

At least from where I sit, I'm seeing the left wing in our country become insanely Authoritarian, intolerant, and pro-censorship. That isn't the right side of history from my lens. 

You have a weird idea of what authoritarianism is if you think it is the revolutionary founding principle of the United States which can be summarized as: the equality of all people and the fundamental right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

You are ideologically on the wrong side of US history because what you support is counter to the goals of the US’s founding fathers and their revolutionary experiment. Call them a cult if you like, it doesn’t make your assertions any more correct. History is not on your side.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

the-pi-guy said:
Jaicee said:

Well..."absolute faith" is a strong term. I don't actually consider myself to necessarily be an ideological progressive, I just agree with the left the most on economics. I trust female progressives more than other candidates when it comes to the combination of economic and social issues, but that doesn't mean I actually have great faith in any particular kind of politician when it comes to women's issues. I think the left is often characterized, in part, by varying levels of left wing misogyny.

If right wing misogyny refers to a belief that women should be the private property of individual men (i.e. patriarchy) then left wing misogyny refers to the belief that women should instead be the public property of all men. For example, since 2018, the official platform of Women's March, Inc. has included a plank advocating the legalization of prostitution. A classic example of what their advocacy around that looks like was seen last year when they protested the closing of Backpage.com, the internet's leading facilitator of child sex trafficking at the time, disingenuously claiming that "The shutting of Backpage is an absolute crisis for sex workers..." Jacobin magazine, the official publication of the Democratic Socialists of America, feels much the same way about prostitution. I just highlight the intersectional left's enthusiasm for prostitution here as a particularly clear example of what I mean.

In this country, unfortunately we don't seem to recognize the existence of left wing misogyny and it's a major cultural blind spot. So to say that I have absolute faith in progressives in the area of women's interests is a stretch. I'm not a big fan of the sex industry, the beauty industry, gender identity, any of that sort of thing any more than I am the prohibition of abortion or intolerance for lesbians. Just for clarity!

>belief that women should instead be the public property of all men

You don't think it's a stretch to call "legalizing prostitution = public property of all men"?  

The latter to me implies that women would be forced to become prostitutes, the former is about giving women (and men) the agency to do what they want with their bodies.  

People could have the agency to choose, and having it be legal means that we can make protections for people.  It would mean there are legal avenues for prostitution, which takes away from the black market and all the issues that go along with it.  

The issue is prostitution as an avenue to get forced down for survival. This goes for all forms of exploitative industries (not just sex related) that become options for people to get forced into for survival.

Prostitution should be legal, but it should never be something that is expected of women who have no other means of supporting themselves. Rather it should be open for women who genuinely want to pursue this path because they want to, and they have dreams/plans of making it work out well for them.

A couple of very obvious options:

1. Licenses/regulations.

2. Provide living benefits and public employment opportunities to women who are unskilled enough for the private industry professions.

These are the options that some countries have pursued. Women in regulated countries have the absolute authority to turn anyone down they don’t wish to service. It is not public ownership of their bodies.

Interesting fact: the Netherlands has less than half the number of prostitutes per capita as the United States. I don’t think the largely Puritanical girls in the US like sex more than all those naughty Dutch girls =)

Joking aside, it is evidence the US is not doing things correctly. It is likely that many in the US’s current system are forced into sex from economic stresses.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 06 July 2019

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

The arguments from the Democratic Candidates have largely been about making sure to document everyone, and putting people who wish to be Americans on a path to citizenship on the basis of the preamble in the US’s revolutionary founding document.

The Democratic party seems to have become the ideological descendants of the revolutionaries, while the republicans have transformed to be the newest version of the ideological opponents of the revolution’s ideology. This is abundantly clear.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74JnNDzjcXk&feature=youtu.be

Biden needs to mae a "C'mon man" hat after this lol.



Biden said the Russian interference would have not happened under his and Obama's watch. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/07/05/biden_russian_election_interference_would_not_have_happened_on_my_watch_and_baracks_watch.html



jason1637 said:
Biden said the Russian interference would have not happened under his and Obama's watch. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/07/05/biden_russian_election_interference_would_not_have_happened_on_my_watch_and_baracks_watch.html

Erm, didn't the 2016 election happen under Obamas and his watch? And didn't Hillary claim russian meddling? Is he saying Clinton was wrong about russian meddling?



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Jumpin said:
DarthMetalliCube said:

Every nation has, and should have, borders, that they enforce - Even the free and equal United States. Why should we in the US exclusively be exempt from this? If you don't have some sort of boundaries, well.. you won't have a United States much longer, and then what's the point? 

I'm all for an easier path to legal citizenship, but illegal crossings are, well, illegal.. I'd love to let everybody in (who isn't a criminal) who would be a possitive influence to society that want to escape a shittier life for a chance at prosperity here, but it's like they said on South Park - if we let everyone in who wants to come in, we'll eventually end up being shitty too. You just cannot have a sustainable country with a billion residents without the vast marjotiry (legal AND illegal) living in extreme poverty), at least I don't see it. We already have millions struggling to make a living wage here. Is it really a good idea to add 10s of millions more? At what point does the fabric of the country become torn apart completely? 

And I'm so done with that "right side of history," that cringeworthy phrase. It just sounds a little creepily cultish and authoritarian to me. Take it from a guy who have studied history thoroughly and has graduated university w/a history degree. Many people who are 100% convinced they were on the "right side of history" end up being very, very much on the WRONG side of it. The "right side of history" is always "to be determined", and usually pretty subjective.

At least from where I sit, I'm seeing the left wing in our country become insanely Authoritarian, intolerant, and pro-censorship. That isn't the right side of history from my lens. 

You have a weird idea of what authoritarianism is if you think it is the revolutionary founding principle of the United States which can be summarized as: the equality of all people and the fundamental right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

You are ideologically on the wrong side of US history because what you support is counter to the goals of the US’s founding fathers and their revolutionary experiment. Call them a cult if you like, it doesn’t make your assertions any more correct. History is not on your side.

History is not on my side as a left leaning libertarian? Huh.. how do you figure? I love how people assume you're some nutty right winger if you merely don't share all the hardcore Authoritarian left wing views or hold some logical stances like "we can't have a a hundred million people flooding into this country and granted health care". We just do not have the money/stability for that. 

Quality and the fundamental right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is precisely what I believe. I also believe in common sense.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden