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Forums - Politics Discussion - IGN takes issue with white male lead in Days Gone.

Video games are a business
White male are the biggest demographic when it comes to AAA console and PC games
Many games have a white male protagonist

That's it, no need for a debate, there is plenty of games where you can choose your character, there is plenty of games with character that are women or non-white.

This is not an issue.



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SpokenTruth said:
pokoko said:

You think a trope is the same thing as a cliche and you're saying that I'm the one who doesn't know what it means?  That's interesting.

You might want to put the shovel down because you are digging one hell of a hole.

Let me guess, you looked it up and saw only definition #1 and then came back to reply to me about how I thought a cliche and a trope are the same thing.

Might want to check definition #2.  Cliche is literally part of that definition.

How about you not sidestep everything else I said, which was actually the important part?

Let me repeat it for you, so you won't accidently snip it again:

My point, which you seemed to miss, is that anyone who is so shallow that they look at a character they don't know anything about and think, "that's a boring trope," is a slave to their own ignorance.  The princess I described is obviously not a boring trope and I have no clue how you came to that conclusion.  Did you not read my description?  What are you even talking about?  I just explained to you that she was very well written and developed.  But I'm supposed to dismiss her because she's a blonde princess?  No. 

People who think like that, "oh, that's a trope, I can just assume I understand everything about that character," are just fooling themselves with meaningless assumptions--and risking looking like fools when their assumptions are wrong.  The article illustrates that perfectly.

Last edited by pokoko - on 06 March 2019

On the top of my head in recent games :
-crackdown 3 black male
-shadow of the tomb raider female
-watch dogs 2 black male
-celeste female
-uncharted 4 dlc female
-spyro trilogy dragon

Yeah, maybe there could be more, I know I would not mind at all tbh. I really don't need for games to have white male leads to identify with.

But there is more and more games where you can choose, anthem I think is one, AC odyssey, fire emblem, fallout 4 and 76, monster Hunter world, Pokemon let's go (if I remember correctly).

And I know it is not as important but many multiplayer games like fortnite, Apex, overwatch, rainbow six, etc have a diverse cast. I know it's not the same because they need many characters.

Anyway I know I can't wait to play Ellie in Last of Us 2, and I am still waiting for a Perfect Dark 2 and a Eternal Darkness 2.

But I get that this is a business, and those decisions are based on marketing



This is the definition of a non-story.



SpokenTruth said:
pokoko said:

How about you not sidestep everything else I said, which was actually the important part?

How about you not understanding anything in my posts which thereby nullifies your posts.  There is nothing for me to respond to.

You tried to call orange cats, black dogs, and fish that swim as tropes.

I'll sum up.  The IGN writer sighed and basically said, "Not another cliched character."  And you, and others, are complaining that the author is talking about some racism or sexism crap. 

It's a trope.  If I go to play a sci-fi action game, chances are the character might be the bald, space marine trope.  I'm tired of bald, space marines.  Does that mean I'm tired of bad people?  Tired of male characters?  Tire of marines?  Tired of space?  No...it's the combined traits, the overused cliche...the trope of the bald, space marine.

Uh ... you do realize that those examples were me mocking the need to call everything a trope, right?  I mean, "fish that swim" didn't tip you off?  For real?  Or are you just pretending you didn't know?

And what you simply seem unable to understand is that saying, "not another cliched character," WHEN HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THAT CHARACTER BEYOND HIS APPEARANCE, is ignorance.  It's an assumption, pure and simple, and one that he was WRONG about.  That very fact proves that it was unfounded.  

I detest your way of thinking, and that of the writer, that need to label and prejudge.  That book I referenced, I had absolutely no need to say, "blonde princess, what a boring trope."  I would much rather let the character develop, or not, and then decide how I feel about them.

Anyway, if you're tired of "serious white men" then, jesus christ, I don't know what to say.  Stay away from serious movies, books, and games, because that's just realism.  That's far, far, far more basic and unspecific than "bald space marine," to the point that the comparison just seems silly and forced.



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Let's have a little thought experiment shall we?

Which of the following is racist?
A) Not another gruff white male.
B) Not another thuggish black male.
C) Not another curvy white woman.
D) Not another sassy Black woman.
E) All of the above.

Answer: Adding a precursor adjective does not excuse racism.

My thoughts on the game in general are "it looks boring and generic" and the the character was an extension of that. And that's all the description the game and protagonist needs from me! "Boring and generic." The sex and ethnicity doesn't factor into it at all. There's no reason to even mention either.

My favorite bit was the part about the "Gruff White Male Protagonist™-ey name as Deacon St. John." Yeah, not racist at all! And if he had instead said not another "sassy Black Woman-ey name like Shaniqua Williams," that wouldn't have been racist either right!?



Thank god there isn't too much water in the game though



Because

Kerotan said:
SpokenTruth said:

Yet another black guy or yet another bassy voiced hulking character using street slang?

See, the first one is bad.  The second one is a character trope.  People get tired of character tropes.  Remember the bald, space marine trope? The shirtless, bandana wearing Rambo trope? Or the buxom busted chick with attitude trope?  It's not their race.  It's not their sex.  It's not the their demeanor.  It's their trope.  A combination of character traits that may start off interesting but then itself becomes a generic character type that gets boring after the nth iteration.

But why does it have to bewhite? Why can't it be a biker of any colour? He could have said this instead.   "“While I’ll admit that I initially rolled my eyes at yet another Gruff Protagonist." I removed the white and male. Gender and skin colour shouldn't be an issue. 

Because racial representation is also part of the trope, just like gender is. Tell me how many grizzly stumbles black leads there are in games?

Later critique of their personality being generic and still fulfilling a trope would still be fair but on appearance they’d at least be doing something uncommon and providing some nice representation.



So what's the issue here? My reading of it is that we should expect developers to experiment more and be more inventive. This would ofcourse mean less white men as leads, but since they have been the norm in many cases, it's good for the industry to challenge the norm and become more diverse. It doesn't men white men leads will dissapear. Also, people need to be less sensitive and not be outraged at every time someone comments about lack of diversity.



Kerotan said:
ArchangelMadzz said:
From what I can tell from your quote they seem to go on to say how they grew to like the character despite their original reaction to a very common character canvas?

The initial reaction is the problem here. White males should be looked at as equals to every other type of human. As an Irish white male, my white male ancestors were treated like dirt by the British so why should I be downgraded, just because other white males from other races were dominant in the past? 

I enjoy games with white female, black female and black male leads among other races but the gender or race of the lead is not why. It's because the character created is cool or likeable. If the lead is white male their judgment will still be based on their personality not their race or gender. 

It's not that he's a white male it's that he looks like the most generic white male character. Scruffy, tough guy has been done to death. It's the current gen equivalent to half of all protagonists looking like Cole from infamous last gen