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Forums - Politics Discussion - Corporate media of the Democrats and Republicans are pro-war, drowning out anti-war voices

What people are only just realizing? War is one of the biggest businesses around.



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Spike0503 said:
Mnementh said:

Peaceful regime changes by time (dictator dies) or peaceful public protest may need a longer time to reach a democracy, but result in far, far less death, destruction and general suffering on the way. So i do prefer it, although it seems cruel. But history shows again and again that actually the slower but less destructive way is usually less cruel.

-snip-

I'm well acquainted with most of the examples you shared. In particular I've watched and read a lot about the Spanish Civil War and the Franco regime in the aftermath. It did take decades before the country had its freedom but that was in part because the power was so concentrated in Franco's hands. When he died, his regime died with him. The other political parties quickly won decisively against his and freedom returned.

Venezuela is different. Chavez died years ago yet the dictatorship continues under another dictator and a bunch of thugs who continue to oppress Venezuelans to this day and will continue to do so if they can for decades. What about Cuba? The dictatorship there has yet to be toppled and Cubans have lived in poverty and misery for 60+ years. When will they achieve their freedom? Should they continue to wait 60 years more until someone in the military grows a conscience and brings back their democracy?

That's the same question Venezuelans would like to ask those against intervention. How many more years should they wait and peacefully protest while being beaten down, persecuted and put into political prisons? Not to mention that regardless thousands die every day by way of hunger and lack of medicines. Should Venezuela become another Cuba? I say no. So as much as I wish I could agree with you, I don't. The only way Venezuelans are getting their freedom back is if the corrupt military and the communist dictatorship is taken down. By force and with an international intervention.

Right, Francos regime died with him. In Taiwan it took two decades to full democracy after the death of Chiang Kai-shek. In South Korea regime endured another decade after the death of the dictator. In Germany and South Africa the regimes had multiple heads over time. Still they all fell one day.

And look at the attempts of regime change. All these wars have resulted in countless deaths, injures, refugees, starvations, epidemics. Even if the regime stays in power a hundred years more, this catastrophic results are worse.  And it is not even guaranteed the war will topple the regime. Look at Vietnam for instance. Or Iran. So you say we should kill hundreds of thousands venezuelan people for the chance that they get maybe a better government? This is cruel and misanthropic.



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It's not pro-war it's pro-peace. The world has never been so peaceful as it is now, all thx to these "pro-war" people. We should all be happy, look what happen in Syria 500k people dead because of "anti-war" thinking.



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Mnementh said:

Right, Francos regime died with him. In Taiwan it took two decades to full democracy after the death of Chiang Kai-shek. In South Korea regime endured another decade after the death of the dictator. In Germany and South Africa the regimes had multiple heads over time. Still they all fell one day.

And look at the attempts of regime change. All these wars have resulted in countless deaths, injures, refugees, starvations, epidemics. Even if the regime stays in power a hundred years more, this catastrophic results are worse.  And it is not even guaranteed the war will topple the regime. Look at Vietnam for instance. Or Iran. So you say we should kill hundreds of thousands venezuelan people for the chance that they get maybe a better government? This is cruel and misanthropic.

Again, I disagree. Your solution is no solution. Venezuelans have endured this anti-free speech, corrupt and murderous regime for 20 years already. No amount of peaceful protests will solve anything at this point. And there are already countless dead, malnourished and dying due to the failure of the dictatorship. Yes, there will be many dead after an intervention, I'm not blind to that fact. But an intervention may bring change. Waiting like you want will bring nothing but more death and the further destruction of Venezuela. The people of Venezuela want it, they have begged for it for years. Your lack of understanding of the current crisis is just as cruel and misanthropic.



Spike0503 said:
Mnementh said:

Right, Francos regime died with him. In Taiwan it took two decades to full democracy after the death of Chiang Kai-shek. In South Korea regime endured another decade after the death of the dictator. In Germany and South Africa the regimes had multiple heads over time. Still they all fell one day.

And look at the attempts of regime change. All these wars have resulted in countless deaths, injures, refugees, starvations, epidemics. Even if the regime stays in power a hundred years more, this catastrophic results are worse.  And it is not even guaranteed the war will topple the regime. Look at Vietnam for instance. Or Iran. So you say we should kill hundreds of thousands venezuelan people for the chance that they get maybe a better government? This is cruel and misanthropic.

Again, I disagree. Your solution is no solution. Venezuelans have endured this anti-free speech, corrupt and murderous regime for 20 years already. No amount of peaceful protests will solve anything at this point. And there are already countless dead, malnourished and dying due to the failure of the dictatorship. Yes, there will be many dead after an intervention, I'm not blind to that fact. But an intervention may bring change. Waiting like you want will bring nothing but more death and the further destruction of Venezuela. The people of Venezuela want it, they have begged for it for years. Your lack of understanding of the current crisis is just as cruel and misanthropic.

I am fully understanding the seriousness of the crisis. But you seem to severely underestimate the suffering caused by war. And this is the result of the starter of the thread: corporate media is pro-war and filled you with years of propaganda to make it look like war is not as bad.



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Mnementh said:

I am fully understanding the seriousness of the crisis. But you seem to severely underestimate the suffering caused by war. And this is the result of the starter of the thread: corporate media is pro-war and filled you with years of propaganda to make it look like war is not as bad.

You don't know what you're talking about. I have no need of propaganda since I know of the crisis firsthand, I understand the consequences of an invasion but I also know that Venezuela may end up like Cuba. A hellhole for decades with no future and no freedom in sight. You keep saying that dictatorships and regimes eventually fall. What about Cuba and North Korea? Do you think those will eventually fall too? Maybe we'll live long enough to see it though I doubt it.

I wonder if you'd have to the guts to look a Venezuelan in the eye who has to choose whether to feed his children or an older parent and say "Just wait, it'll get better".



Spike0503 said:
Mnementh said:

I am fully understanding the seriousness of the crisis. But you seem to severely underestimate the suffering caused by war. And this is the result of the starter of the thread: corporate media is pro-war and filled you with years of propaganda to make it look like war is not as bad.

You don't know what you're talking about. I have no need of propaganda since I know of the crisis firsthand, I understand the consequences of an invasion but I also know that Venezuela may end up like Cuba. A hellhole for decades with no future and no freedom in sight. You keep saying that dictatorships and regimes eventually fall. What about Cuba and North Korea? Do you think those will eventually fall too? Maybe we'll live long enough to see it though I doubt it.

I wonder if you'd have to the guts to look a Venezuelan in the eye who has to choose whether to feed his children or an older parent and say "Just wait, it'll get better".

I actually grew up in eastern germany, so yeah, I have the guts to look a Venezuelan in the eye and say that as bad as it is, it's still better than war.

Do you have the guts to look people from Iraq, Libya or Jemen in the eye and say they do have it better than people from Venezuela? I still think you have not the slightest grasp on how horrible war really is.



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Mnementh said:

I actually grew up in eastern germany, so yeah, I have the guts to look a Venezuelan in the eye and say that as bad as it is, it's still better than war.

Do you have the guts to look people from Iraq, Libya or Jemen in the eye and say they do have it better than people from Venezuela? I still think you have not the slightest grasp on how horrible war really is.

No one can understand the horror of war until one has lived through it. I don't know if you have but I won't claim to understand since I haven't lived through one. Still, I believe the kind of dramatic change Venezuela needs will require bloodshed. If not, they will become another Cuba. Another hellhole with no future.

The point of my question is that no Venezuelan wants to wait another decade for the people in power to grow a conscience and if asked, they would support a military intervention. I'm not sure I understand the point of your question.

Regardless, I'm not looking to change your mind and we can leave this discussion here. As I said before, I wish there could be a peaceful end to the tyranny. Alas, there won't be so I wish Venezuela gets their freedom back even if a war is necessary to reclaim it.



Weird, I just posted this on my twiter the other day, and it strangely fits well with this topic, so I'll slap it here, since I'm too lazy to reiterate it with new wording right now lol - 

Establishment always has to use fearmongering and xenophobia to keep the public supporting their endless wars and intervention into foreign affairs. With the GOP it was "OMG terrorists/WMDs!". Now we're seeing the DNC come up w/their own version with "OMG Russians!". They're both bs and pose little to no threat to the US.

It's very odd that now both major political parties in the US seem to be pro war/intervention while the majority of Americans are anti-war. We need a new anti-war party in America, or at least a politician that runs strong on that platform, which I why I like Tulsi.



 

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DarthMetalliCube said:

Weird, I just posted this on my twiter the other day, and it strangely fits well with this topic, so I'll slap it here, since I'm too lazy to reiterate it with new wording right now lol - 

Establishment always has to use fearmongering and xenophobia to keep the public supporting their endless wars and intervention into foreign affairs. With the GOP it was "OMG terrorists/WMDs!". Now we're seeing the DNC come up w/their own version with "OMG Russians!". They're both bs and pose little to no threat to the US.

It's very odd that now both major political parties in the US seem to be pro war/intervention while the majority of Americans are anti-war. We need a new anti-war party in America, or at least a politician that runs strong on that platform, which I why I like Tulsi.

Vote libertarian.



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