By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate League

I'm interested. I'll have to see if I can unlock everything before December 10th. I also have to *sigh* pay the online fee...



You know it deserves the GOTY.

Come join The 2018 Obscure Game Monthly Review Thread.

Around the Network
MTZehvor said:

I've seen a few stage lists thrown around so far, but here's my (personal) favorite from what's been tossed around.

Starters: Battlefield, FD, Pokemon Stadium 2*, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpicks: Town & City, Arena Ferox, WarioWare*, Castle Siege*

* denotes hazards off

Admittedly this may have to be changed as we find out more about the game and discover some good/bad things about stages. I'm certainly not opposed to modifying this either if people want some other stage swapped in for another (like say if you want Wily's Castle in)

Alternatively, since we have so many legal stages, I think it'd be really cool if we had a seasonal stage rotation, where different stages get swapped in to the list depending on the time of year. That way, we get an opportunity to play on all (or most) of the plethora of legal stages at some point.

As a personal aside, I'd recommend staying away from adding more Battlefield clones (Yoshi's Story/Dreamland), as well as FoD due to framerate issues that some people have reported.

Not a big fan of this personally. I think limiting the stage list to just 5 starters from the get go is way too strict and will make game 1's in general a lot more boring since they're always gonna end up in Pokémon Stadium. 7 starters is totally doable with the stages we have and will promote a lot more variety. Besides, Yoshi's Island is definitely not starter material with hazards on.

Also, Arena Ferox has already been deconfirmed as a legal stage. It has random rotations each time you play on it from what people told me, so, rip. That, and I think banning stages like Lylat Cruise or Fountain of Dreams for bugs or frame drops found on hacked pre-release copies isn't something I can agree on, people have already found loads of glitches non-related to stages too. There will be a day 1 patch, and more patches down the line. Things will get fixed, and if they don't, then they can be banned.

Edit: and personally I'm not a fan of the seasonal rotation idea, I think it sounds a little too... arbitrary. The stage list I proposed has a lot of variety while still being manageable, I think it's fine.



mZuzek said:
TruckOSaurus said:

- The League will officially start on December 10th to give people time to practice before the real thing (and also because I'm not available during the release weekend)

Oh, nice. I won't be around this opening week either. Count me in, then!

Also hoping to hear a bit on stages. I don't know how close to competitive rules you want to go with here, but just for reference, this is the stage list we're using in our first local next Sunday.

Seems like an interesting list but you'll have to explain a couple of things to me: What's "Stage striking 2-3-1" and "3 bans +DSR"?



Signature goes here!

mZuzek said:
MTZehvor said:

I've seen a few stage lists thrown around so far, but here's my (personal) favorite from what's been tossed around.

Starters: Battlefield, FD, Pokemon Stadium 2*, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counterpicks: Town & City, Arena Ferox, WarioWare*, Castle Siege*

* denotes hazards off

Admittedly this may have to be changed as we find out more about the game and discover some good/bad things about stages. I'm certainly not opposed to modifying this either if people want some other stage swapped in for another (like say if you want Wily's Castle in)

Alternatively, since we have so many legal stages, I think it'd be really cool if we had a seasonal stage rotation, where different stages get swapped in to the list depending on the time of year. That way, we get an opportunity to play on all (or most) of the plethora of legal stages at some point.

As a personal aside, I'd recommend staying away from adding more Battlefield clones (Yoshi's Story/Dreamland), as well as FoD due to framerate issues that some people have reported.

Not a big fan of this personally. I think limiting the stage list to just 5 starters from the get go is way too strict and will make game 1's in general a lot more boring since they're always gonna end up in Pokémon Stadium. 7 starters is totally doable with the stages we have and will promote a lot more variety. Besides, Yoshi's Island is definitely not starter material with hazards on.

Also, Arena Ferox has already been deconfirmed as a legal stage. It has random rotations each time you play on it from what people told me, so, rip. That, and I think banning stages like Lylat Cruise or Fountain of Dreams for bugs or frame drops found on hacked pre-release copies isn't something I can agree on, people have already found loads of glitches non-related to stages too. There will be a day 1 patch, and more patches down the line. Things will get fixed, and if they don't, then they can be banned.

Edit: and personally I'm not a fan of the seasonal rotation idea, I think it sounds a little too... arbitrary. The stage list I proposed has a lot of variety while still being manageable, I think it's fine.

I don't inherently mind 7 stages, but I don't think it's fair to say that Game 1s will always default to PS2 as basically every widely accepted Smash ruleset has had 5 or fewer starting stages. We'd also probably need a more complex banning process with 7 stages, and given that a simpler ruleset is probably better for a league where a lot of people probably won't be particularly familiar with competitive play, I'm a little iffy about embracing 7. Not totally opposed though.

Maybe FoD/Lylat won't actually be buggy post release, but until we know that they are, I really don't see why we should take the risk and include them. There's plenty of legal stages that can take their place, and there's no reason why we have to chance having a buggy stage screw up a game when we're assured a fine match with something else (say Hazardless Frigate Orpheon or something).



TruckOSaurus said:
mZuzek said:

Oh, nice. I won't be around this opening week either. Count me in, then!

Also hoping to hear a bit on stages. I don't know how close to competitive rules you want to go with here, but just for reference, this is the stage list we're using in our first local next Sunday.

Seems like an interesting list but you'll have to explain a couple of things to me: What's "Stage striking 2-3-1" and "3 bans +DSR"?

Stage Striking 2-3-1: Basically it means that when stages are being banned for the first game, Player 1 starts the banning process by banning 2 stages, Player 2 then bans 3 stages, and then Player 1 picks from one of the two stages remaining (in essence, banning the one that isn't chosen).

3 bans + DSR: The winner of the previous game gets to ban 3 stages from the entire list (Starters + Counterpicks). DSR (Dave's Stupid Rule) means that a player cannot go back to a stage they previously won on without the loser of that game's consent.



Around the Network
TruckOSaurus said:
mZuzek said:

Also hoping to hear a bit on stages. I don't know how close to competitive rules you want to go with here, but just for reference, this is the stage list we're using in our first local next Sunday.

Seems like an interesting list but you'll have to explain a couple of things to me: What's "Stage striking 2-3-1" and "3 bans +DSR"?

It's about the process of deciding stages. Stage striking is what you'd normally do on the first game of a tournament stage to decide the opening stage. Both players play an RPS, after which the winner strikes 2 stages he/she doesn't want to play on; then, the loser strikes 3 stages he/she doesn't want; and finally, the RPS winner then decides where to play out of the two remaining stages, hence 2-3-1 (2 strikes; 3 strikes; 1 strike). Normally up to this point it was always 1-2-1 because there were always 5 starter stages in previous games, but I think with Ultimate it's time we expand the list.

The counterpick part is for games after game 1, and from then all of those stages are available. Before the loser of the last game gets to choose the stage counterpick, the winner can ban 3 stages he/she doesn't want to play on. "DSR" stands for "Dave's Stupid Rule". I don't know where the name came from, but it was a rule where you can also not counterpick a stage you've already won on that set; but the Modified version is a newer take on it where you can only not pick the last stage you've won on. In the end, it's a little complicated and maybe we could do without it if you'd please - having a proper stage list means we're always gonna be playing on decent stages even without counterpick bans. Personally, I wouldn't mind not having them, and I'm probably one of the most competitive players around here.

MTZehvor said:

I don't inherently mind 7 stages, but I don't think it's fair to say that Game 1s will always default to PS2 as basically every widely accepted Smash ruleset has had 5 or fewer starting stages. We'd also probably need a more complex banning process with 7 stages, and given that a simpler ruleset is probably better for a league where a lot of people probably won't be particularly familiar with competitive play, I'm a little iffy about embracing 7. Not totally opposed though.

Maybe FoD/Lylat won't actually be buggy post release, but until we know that they are, I really don't see why we should take the risk and include them. There's plenty of legal stages that can take their place, and there's no reason why we have to chance having a buggy stage screw up a game when we're assured a fine match with something else (say Hazardless Frigate Orpheon or something).

Well, the accepted Smash 4 ruleset had 5 starting stages and they always started in Smashville, so, there. The banning system isn't really more complex than with 5 stages (1-2-1 for 5 stages, 2-3-1 for 7 stages), but I think if people here don't wanna go through that, they can just straight up pick a stage they agree on.

...Yeah but the thing is, no stage in Smash history has ever been added to a stage list. It's literally never happened, so it's unreasonable to believe that somehow, this time, the community will be able to embrace a new stage popping up on the stagelist just because its glitches have been fixed. If anything, I find it more likely that people will create new excuses to keep said stages banned. In the end, I think bugs are something we'll just have to deal with this early in a game's lifespan - it was the same with Smash 4, which early on had a lot of different mechanics such as Vectoring-DI, DACUS, and that bizarre Wario Waft glitch. It's just how things go at this stage... I'd rather risk having all these stages there, and only ban them if they do prove to be problematic and aren't fixed post-release. Also, Hazardless Frigate Orpheon is already on the stagelist in the first place, saying it should replace FoD or Lylat is nonsense since they're vastly different stages.



mZuzek said:
TruckOSaurus said:

Seems like an interesting list but you'll have to explain a couple of things to me: What's "Stage striking 2-3-1" and "3 bans +DSR"?

It's about the process of deciding stages. Stage striking is what you'd normally do on the first game of a tournament stage to decide the opening stage. Both players play an RPS, after which the winner strikes 2 stages he/she doesn't want to play on; then, the loser strikes 3 stages he/she doesn't want; and finally, the RPS winner then decides where to play out of the two remaining stages, hence 2-3-1 (2 strikes; 3 strikes; 1 strike). Normally up to this point it was always 1-2-1 because there were always 5 starter stages in previous games, but I think with Ultimate it's time we expand the list.

The counterpick part is for games after game 1, and from then all of those stages are available. Before the loser of the last game gets to choose the stage counterpick, the winner can ban 3 stages he/she doesn't want to play on. "DSR" stands for "Dave's Stupid Rule". I don't know where the name came from, but it was a rule where you can also not counterpick a stage you've already won on that set; but the Modified version is a newer take on it where you can only not pick the last stage you've won on. In the end, it's a little complicated and maybe we could do without it if you'd please - having a proper stage list means we're always gonna be playing on decent stages even without counterpick bans. Personally, I wouldn't mind not having them, and I'm probably one of the most competitive players around here.

MTZehvor said:

I don't inherently mind 7 stages, but I don't think it's fair to say that Game 1s will always default to PS2 as basically every widely accepted Smash ruleset has had 5 or fewer starting stages. We'd also probably need a more complex banning process with 7 stages, and given that a simpler ruleset is probably better for a league where a lot of people probably won't be particularly familiar with competitive play, I'm a little iffy about embracing 7. Not totally opposed though.

Maybe FoD/Lylat won't actually be buggy post release, but until we know that they are, I really don't see why we should take the risk and include them. There's plenty of legal stages that can take their place, and there's no reason why we have to chance having a buggy stage screw up a game when we're assured a fine match with something else (say Hazardless Frigate Orpheon or something).

Well, the accepted Smash 4 ruleset had 5 starting stages and they always started in Smashville, so, there. The banning system isn't really more complex than with 5 stages (1-2-1 for 5 stages, 2-3-1 for 7 stages), but I think if people here don't wanna go through that, they can just straight up pick a stage they agree on.

...Yeah but the thing is, no stage in Smash history has ever been added to a stage list. It's literally never happened, so it's unreasonable to believe that somehow, this time, the community will be able to embrace a new stage popping up on the stagelist just because its glitches have been fixed. If anything, I find it more likely that people will create new excuses to keep said stages banned. In the end, I think bugs are something we'll just have to deal with this early in a game's lifespan - it was the same with Smash 4, which early on had a lot of different mechanics such as Vectoring-DI, DACUS, and that bizarre Wario Waft glitch. It's just how things go at this stage... I'd rather risk having all these stages there, and only ban them if they do prove to be problematic and aren't fixed post-release. Also, Hazardless Frigate Orpheon is already on the stagelist in the first place, saying it should replace FoD or Lylat is nonsense since they're vastly different stages.

Sure, but both Melee and Brawl did as well, and neither ran into those issues. Smash 4's problem was more about how polarizing many of its starter stages were (often giving a notable advantage to one character or the other), not to mention having Lylat included. SV was really the only one that was widely "neutral." 

While saying that no stages have ever been added isn't exactly true (Dreamland as DLC, Lylat was taken off and then re-added), the reason why it's rarely happened largely been because those stages had obvious problems that were discovered and they were never fixed. There's no precedent that suggests people wouldn't be willing to embrace a stage if its problems were solved for. While it's not exactly the same thing, Dreamland was added virtually as soon as it was added to the game. I think this depiction of Smash players who are sticks in the mud that are unable to change their approach to a ruleset is just wrong; people have been willing to change to allow a stage that was DLC, and they'd certainly be willing to change if problems were solved.

Plus, even if it were an accurate description, this is a website's league, not a tournament using official national rulesets. We (or more accurately, Truck) can change stuff ourselves if we want. There's no reason why we have to be beholden to the same restrictions as everyone else.

Frigate Orpheon is certainly different, my intent was not to suggest similar stages; rather simply other ones that could be legal.



I am gonna hand every single everyone of an L on the 10th.



animegaming said:
I am gonna hand every single everyone of an L on the 10th.

Thankfully I'm not an "everyone". Pretty sure you're not handing me an L.



It seems that FoD has had framerate issues fixed in the final version. I'll give it a whirl on Friday and if it seems to be fine then I'd be cool with adding it to the legal stage list.

Still iffy on Lylat though.