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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2 (Eurogamer)

Cerebralbore101 said:

They are salaried employees, so they probably make less per hour than working at a gas station. Nobody chooses to work 100 hour workweeks. They are forced to. Why don't they quit and get a different job you say? Well, student loan debt is a hell of a thing, especially for students that went to a respectable game school like Digipen. And there's no other jobs out there these days. The AA industry died out years ago, so all that's left is AAA jobs with insane workweeks, and 100 people applying for that 1 videogame job. 

Dunno about you Americans, but when they're talking about Rockstar's UK studios then student loan debt is not a factor at all. You don't pay a penny back unless you earn over a certain threshold and all the debts are written off after 30 years anyway so people shouldn't have any worries about that whatsoever.



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CuCabeludo said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

Yeah, so we shouldn't complain about anything if there's someone in worse condition. How stupid.

Every time I want to complain about the nature of my work and see someone who is in a much worse situation, I forget and thank God for what I can do.

There is the alternative of trying to make it better for everyone, though.

Following that logic, no one would have complained back in the 19th century, when children worked 16-hour shifts on factories, since they could instead have been at risk of starvation back in the countryside. Or going even further, enslaved africans and natives should not have complained either, since they had clothes and shelter and are no longer pagans doomed to damnation.

It can sound like an extreme example, and I'm not saying you and most people think like that, but everytime I heard that sort of speech, I can't help but think those are exactly the sort of people who would have defended stuff like I mentioned if they had been born two or three centuries ago.



 

 

 

 

 

John2290 said:
How dare they ask people that they are paying to work, to do more work. These poor employees who have to sit warm, dry, fed for longer periods of times when a deadline draws near in an industry known for deadlines and crunch and not a 9 to 5. Rockstar need to lay these overworked people off, it's totally unfair that they have a time consuming and demanding job or give them all half their hours with half their pay and double the team size! That'll solve it. They shouldn't be allowed to choose to work, it's a social injustice and these people need to be laid off!

I'll never understand why people thinks it's alright to butt into other people life and career choices. Now rockstar will be forced to cut peoples hours to avoid backlash in the future and people who need the over time will be shot outta luck. Also, never believe a 'previous' employee of anything, they may not be exactly truthful.

Fire them all and make sure they have to break their backs with labour intensive jobs in the future with less hours and less pay! We can all agree that their lives are better when we choose their career paths for them? Right? How dare they choose their own way in life.

Out of curiousity, what is your profession?

potato_hamster said:
Game developers are disposable, and always have been. It's why I don't make video games any more. 60-80 hour work weeks minimum for months at a time, often times with no extra pay, and a salary that's 20-25% less than what you can get in other software development roles.

"Don't like it? Here's a stack of resumes of people that would happily replace you. What's that? That game you've been working on just shipped and we're gonna have a few months of pre-production before our we need to put a full team on it? Here's your lay off papers with meager severance. You can apply again when we start to re-hire, but if we hire you'll be treated as a new employee with no seniority."

I miss making video games, and I also really, really don't miss making video games.

This is very sad.

OP: Practices like these need to be regulated by governments, in my opinion. This is a case in which forming a union makes sense. It's obvious that companys won't change their behaviour out of generosity.



Gameplay > Graphics

Substance > Style

Art Direction > Realism

m0ney said:

Meh what is 100 hours, how about 200.. oh wait

From where do I know this meme? kkkkk

S.Peelman said:
Bisa said:

This quote speaks volumes and its something that really can't be said enough

"AAA games with a five-year dev cycle shouldn't have this horrendously hyper crunch at the end with people working 90+ hours a week. Surely down the road, as you're developing, something isn't quite right."

Also this part is disgusting

"For night shifts, UK employment laws state a person can only work eight out of every 24 hours, but Rockstar employees sign agreements to waive this condition."

Sure they could ask that, but that wouldn’t fly in court anyway. A company’s not above the law.

At least in Brazil (and I believe in USA and UK) you can't waive of your rights. So if the law in your country says the conditions are X, doesn't matter how many documents you sign, the law will overule them.

Now, we can say people will avoid suing because they will need work and being someone who sues employees may be a deterrent.

potato_hamster said:
DonFerrari said:
Very bad situation, but seems like those employees rather work there than leave to another company or really strike and improve their on condition. lost posts floating in the internet won't be what will help them.

You can leave for another company but most of them aren't going to treat you any better, and you can strike, but, there's a list of people that will glady take your jobs.

The video game industry is a fucking meat grinder. There's a reason most people last less than 5 years.

Yes those are all right claims. And a reason why we had a lot of Indie devs opening up. Also I wouldn't say most or all dev companies have regular 80h shifts paid as 40h. Those would be very easily won class suits.

Cerebralbore101 said:
John2290 said:
How dare they ask people that they are paying to work, to do more work. These poor employees who have to sit warm, dry, fed for longer periods of times when a deadline draws near in an industry known for deadlines and crunch and not a 9 to 5. Rockstar need to lay these overworked people off, it's totally unfair that they have a time consuming and demanding job or give them all half their hours with half their pay and double the team size! That'll solve it. They shouldn't be allowed to choose to work, it's a social injustice and these people need to be laid off!

I'll never understand why people thinks it's alright to butt into other people life and career choices. Now rockstar will be forced to cut peoples hours to avoid backlash in the future and people who need the over time will be shot outta luck. Also, never believe a 'previous' employee of anything, they may not be exactly truthful.

Fire them all and make sure they have to break their backs with labour intensive jobs in the future with less hours and less pay! We can all agree that their lives are better when we choose their career paths for them? Right? How dare they choose their own way in life.

They are salaried employees, so they probably make less per hour than working at a gas station. Nobody chooses to work 100 hour workweeks. They are forced to. Why don't they quit and get a different job you say? Well, student loan debt is a hell of a thing, especially for students that went to a respectable game school like Digipen. And there's no other jobs out there these days. The AA industry died out years ago, so all that's left is AAA jobs with insane workweeks, and 100 people applying for that 1 videogame job. 

I'm pretty sure salaried employees doesn't earn the same in all jobs even within the same state. And it is breach of contract to contract someone for a certain hourly wage and pay for just half the hours worked, easy lawsuit. And on a country like USA with 3% unemployment rate I find it very hard to believe you can't find a job.

haxxiy said:
CuCabeludo said:

Every time I want to complain about the nature of my work and see someone who is in a much worse situation, I forget and thank God for what I can do.

There is the alternative of trying to make it better for everyone, though.

Following that logic, no one would have complained back in the 19th century, when children worked 16-hour shifts on factories, since they could instead have been at risk of starvation back in the countryside. Or going even further, enslaved africans and natives should not have complained either, since they had clothes and shelter and are no longer pagans doomed to damnation.

It can sound like an extreme example, and I'm not saying you and most people think like that, but everytime I heard that sort of speech, I can't help but think those are exactly the sort of people who would have defended stuff like I mentioned if they had been born two or three centuries ago.

Do you know what really improve those? Productivity gain. Because try as you may if you can't produce at least more than you earn then you won't get that job.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
S.Peelman said:

Sure they could ask that, but that wouldn’t fly in court anyway. A company’s not above the law.

At least in Brazil (and I believe in USA and UK) you can't waive of your rights. So if the law in your country says the conditions are X, doesn't matter how many documents you sign, the law will overule them.

Now, we can say people will avoid suing because they will need work and being someone who sues employees may be a deterrent.

Exactly. Something like that is just a scare tactic.

I work in architecture, and it’s a similar situation. Though friendlier by what I’m reading here. Basically they’re counting on your honor to not let your colleague down.



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I have not heard good things with regards to R*'s workplace conditions...

Not interested in R*'s games anyways so I likely won't be funding terrible practices.



S.Peelman said:
DonFerrari said:

At least in Brazil (and I believe in USA and UK) you can't waive of your rights. So if the law in your country says the conditions are X, doesn't matter how many documents you sign, the law will overule them.

Now, we can say people will avoid suing because they will need work and being someone who sues employees may be a deterrent.

Exactly. Something like that is just a scare tactic.

I work in architecture, and it’s a similar situation. Though friendlier by what I’m reading here. Basically they’re counting on your honor to not let your colleague down.

Yep, If I was ok signing a contract (no matter how much shitty it was) if the company followed it then I wouldn't sue even if I had the right. Still working conditions certainly could improve.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
S.Peelman said:

Exactly. Something like that is just a scare tactic.

I work in architecture, and it’s a similar situation. Though friendlier by what I’m reading here. Basically they’re counting on your honor to not let your colleague down.

Yep, If I was ok signing a contract (no matter how much shitty it was) if the company followed it then I wouldn't sue even if I had the right. Still working conditions certainly could improve.

Suing also risks getting you blacklisted from the industry.



Well, adding Rockstar to the list of developers to never work for.



I suspect these accusations all pale before the torturous, partly-self-imposed workload Sakurai takes on lol

Pretty sure employment laws are a lot more lax in Japan though.