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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel: the new face of apartheid - Discuss

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

I strongly disagree.Natenyahu is obssessed and is slowly illegally taking more and more land from the Palestinians and squeezing them into smaller and smaller places. Plus it's not easy to genocide a people larger than yours that have a high birthrate as well. Look at the beginning of the century and how much illegal settlements Israel has and now how much illegal settlements they have. Israel is playing the long game as otherwise they might meet opposition from many countries. As in actual physical opposition not just condemnation. It's telling that only US supports calling Hamas a terror group and only US stood with Israel in UN. Israel routinely murders children, nurses, doctors etc with no terrorist in sight. The soldiers enjoy beating up children for fun. Israel is much worse than Palestine and a huge offender. They haven't destroyed Palestine yet for their own survival and benefit. It has nothing to do with morals or human decency. Israel is very trigger happy when It comes to palestinians and sees them as subhuman but is controlling itself because it fears other world powers. Look at what's happening at West bank and you'll see the trend of Israel ending Palestine in half a century or century. 

You can strongly disagree as much as you like.  The power of peace is, and always has been in Palestinian hands.  Settlements?  Sheesh.

As for the US being the only country to stand for Israel at the UN.  That tells you more about the UN and the world than it does about Israel.  They live in an impossible situation and their biggest offense is not refusing to die quietly this time.  As I said in my first post, the greatest crime against humanity that can be committed in the eyes of this world is to be a Jew and defend your home.

You're hypocritical considering you're arguing that the non-Jewish Palestinians shouldn't be allowed to defend their homes from the invaders.
Most of the Jewish people in Israel are foreigners who had land given to them by a militant colonial power simply based on their religion. All of the Palestinians are native to the region, having roots in the land that span back to times when they were the original Jewish population, and even before that; thousands of years. Now 5.2 million of them are without homes because of this Israeli Crusader Kingdom.

Basically, if you are a Jewish Palestinian, then they allow you to stay, but if you are not Jewish, they kick you out of your home, forcing you into a life of poverty and starvation.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 24 July 2018

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

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I'm seeing quite a bit of posts that have crossed the line, particularly Flaming. If there is an issue with a viewpoint, try not to make things personal.



                                                                                                                                                           

First of all, calling Israel "the new face of apartheid" is a huge exaggeration and playes down the apartheid state in South Africa.

That being said I think it's a step in the wrong direction, decisions like that won't help to deescalate this decade long conflict.

On a more general note, everyone can save a lot of time and energy when they not trying to discuss whether the founding of Israel was legitimate or not. The fact is that Israel now exists and many millions of Jews live in Palestine, whether you like it or not and the only thing that could change that would be the biggest crime in human history since the Holocaust. So if someone is interested in discussing the Palestine–Israeli conflict and possible solutions he or she should use the current situation as the starting point. Revanchism is a dangerous concept, just take a look at the 20th century.



Aeolus451 said:
CartBlanche said:

You were triggered right from the start going all ad hominem calling me  "leftie" in your very first post. What gold fish memory you have and a double standard. Quite the snowflake you've turned out to be! lol. You still aren't unable to comprehend comparisons! How do you actually do in life? Quite the dolt. You might need a thesaurus for that. If you don't know what a thesaurus is, start with a dictionary and work your way up. 

Leftie is not an insult, Sherlock. It's an umbrella term for left leaning people. Lefties have a habit of going after jews and defending hamas. Instead of going after my arguments in your thread, you resort to ad hominem which means you don't actually have any argument (just like your op) or I bothered you to the point that you can't control yourself. That being said there's no point in bothering with ya anymore.

That's quite the claim you're making there. I assume you have polls and data to back it up. Because legitimate criticism of Israel's foreign policy does not make a person left-wing and Pro-Hamas. That's absolutely absurd and as narrow minded as what those lefties you seem to detest so much say.

Last edited by Moren - on 25 July 2018

morenoingrato said:
Aeolus451 said:

Leftie is not an insult, Sherlock. It's an umbrella term for left leaning people. Lefties have a habit of going after jews and defending hamas. Instead of going after my arguments in your thread, you resort to ad hominem which means you don't actually have any argument (just like your op) or I bothered you to the point that you can't control yourself. That being said there's no point in bothering with ya anymore.

That's quite the claim you're making there. I assume you have polls and data to back it up. Because legitimate criticism of Israel's foreign policy does not make a person left-wing and Pro-Hamas. That's absolutely absurd and as narrow minded as what those lefties you seem to detest so much say.

If you pay any attention to politics and you're intellectually honest, you'll know that's true. I didn't say anyone who criticizing Israel is a lefty btw.



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Aeolus451 said:
morenoingrato said:

That's quite the claim you're making there. I assume you have polls and data to back it up. Because legitimate criticism of Israel's foreign policy does not make a person left-wing and Pro-Hamas. That's absolutely absurd and as narrow minded as what those lefties you seem to detest so much say.

If you pay any attention to politics and you're intellectually honest, you'll know that's true. I didn't say anyone who criticizing Israel is a lefty btw.

I pay quite a bit of attention and I try to be broad in what I read.

If you nitpick the most radical publications and organizations, sure, you may have a point. Answer me this question then. Are U.S. Democrats anti-Jew? Was Obama or H. Clinton ?



morenoingrato said:
Aeolus451 said:

If you pay any attention to politics and you're intellectually honest, you'll know that's true. I didn't say anyone who criticizing Israel is a lefty btw.

I pay quite a bit of attention and I try to be broad in what I read.

If you nitpick the most radical publications and organizations, sure, you may have a point. Answer me this question then. Are U.S. Democrats anti-Jew? Was Obama or H. Clinton ?

You're not as tuned in as you think you are then.   

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/1/23/16924184/democrat-republican-israel-palestinians-poll-trump

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/15/politics/democrats-views-on-israel-shifting/index.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/05/18/israel_has_no_friend_in_democrats_137064.html

Dems are not anti-jew as in against all jews but they're definitely anti-Israel because they view Palestine as a victim so Israel must be the oppressor. The sentiment is spreading among the left in other parts of the world.



Aeolus451 said:
morenoingrato said:

I pay quite a bit of attention and I try to be broad in what I read.

If you nitpick the most radical publications and organizations, sure, you may have a point. Answer me this question then. Are U.S. Democrats anti-Jew? Was Obama or H. Clinton ?

You're not as tuned in as you think you are then.   

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/1/23/16924184/democrat-republican-israel-palestinians-poll-trump

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/15/politics/democrats-views-on-israel-shifting/index.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/05/18/israel_has_no_friend_in_democrats_137064.html

Dems are not anti-jew as in against all jews but they're definitely anti-Israel because they view Palestine as a victim so Israel must be the oppressor. The sentiment is spreading among the left in other parts of the world.

Funnily enough, that link you posted leads to data which shows Democrats are still more favorable towards Israel than the Palestinians. And yes, I acknowledge "Liberals" (which probably means hardline Democrats) are more favorable towards the Palestinians in 2018.

I'm sure Democrats are going to resent Israel a bit after Netanyahu, its head of state, was so hellbent in undermining Obama's Nucelar agreement that he even went to the US to speak to Obama's political opposition about it. Regardless of whether you find the deal to be good or bad, that was an extremely disrespectful action towards a sitting president.

And almost no (if any) Democrat politician is anti-Israel. At least not openly anyway.

And regardless, sympathy towards the Palestinians, one of the poorest countries of the world, when put against a military behemoth like Israel, does not in any way support your claims about Hamas. 

And for the record, I believe Israel has the right to exist and Hamas is a detestable terrorist group.



NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

Let me Remind you that this is historically Palestine's home. There are and were alwayawe're always palestinian Jews as Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Jews. Israel was formed by and for European Jews. Foreigners to the land. Palestine is defending it's home while Israel is trying to make one without the existence of Palestine. If you ignore the illegal settlements you are just blind. Sorry but the world rarely agrees on anything yet it agrees that Israel is the aggressor. The UN is not perfect but this is more than 99% unanimous. Whether you agree or not matters not. Regardless I don't care if Israel or Palestine survive as long as there is no war or oppression from either side 

And:

Jumpin said:

You're hypocritical considering you're arguing that the non-Jewish Palestinians shouldn't be allowed to defend their homes from the invaders.
Most of the Jewish people in Israel are foreigners who had land given to them by a militant colonial power simply based on their religion. All of the Palestinians are native to the region, having roots in the land that span back to times when they were the original Jewish population, and even before that; thousands of years. Now 5.2 million of them are without homes because of this Israeli Crusader Kingdom.

Basically, if you are a Jewish Palestinian, then they allow you to stay, but if you are not Jewish, they kick you out of your home, forcing you into a life of poverty and starvation.

Thank you for proving my point both of you.  The very existence of Israel is enough provocation to incite violence.  I reject that notion that this is acceptable behavior.  Like it or not, Israel is a nation.  Again, if the Palestinians want a happy life, all they must do is stop trying to kill Jews.  It's all on them not whatever nonsense (settlements, sheesh, so petty it's laughable) is the trumped up charge of the week.  Stop coddling a people so steeped in hatred that they would live for generations in misery rather than living in peace.

The Israelis will be happy to stop the conflict once it's safe to do so.  They don't have a partner though, so whatever.  Let the world condemn, it just proves how messed up the world truly is.

What logic don't you get? Israel is the aggressor. Illegal settlements aren't laughable they are the truth of Israel. Israel won't be happy and doesn't want peace. They are all too happy to have Hamas so they can spew propaganda and claim hamas while killing innocents. Israel wants all of what Was Palestine. They don't care whether palestinians are Christian or Muslim, child or adult, innocent or combatant, they will kill them and take their land. The land that was Palestine and now illegally occupied is not petty. What if your neighbour takes control of half your house illegally. Won't you be mad and outraged. What I'm saying and what jumping is saying and what you are hearing are completly different things. You think Israel is a just this pure innocent nation that is defending itself but it's a monster where IDF enjoys killing and bullying innocents and children. The last thing Israel wants is peace with Palestine. It doesn't want Palestine to exist at all  



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NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

What logic don't you get? Israel is the aggressor. Illegal settlements aren't laughable they are the truth of Israel. Israel won't be happy and doesn't want peace. They are all too happy to have Hamas so they can spew propaganda and claim hamas while killing innocents. Israel wants all of what Was Palestine. They don't care whether palestinians are Christian or Muslim, child or adult, innocent or combatant, they will kill them and take their land. The land that was Palestine and now illegally occupied is not petty. What if your neighbour takes control of half your house illegally. Won't you be mad and outraged. What I'm saying and what jumping is saying and what you are hearing are completly different things. You think Israel is a just this pure innocent nation that is defending itself but it's a monster where IDF enjoys killing and bullying innocents and children. The last thing Israel wants is peace with Palestine. It doesn't want Palestine to exist at all  

Settlements are laughable because:

1.  They're an excuse, not a reason.  The will to kill Jews exists regardless of whether settlements are being built or dismantled.

2.  The excuse of setting up places to live is a flimsy motivation for violence to the point of obsessive insanity.

Also, if I moved in somewhere and my neighbor immediately tried to kill me and my family, yes I would take half their house if it diminished my neighbor's threat.  Furthermore, I wouldn't feel bad about it and would look at any outsider funny when they demand I give it back.  Until I'm certain the threat is gone, I will protect my family.

Is Israel perfect?  Hardly.  You have a war, there are going to be atrocities committed.  But they're not out to make Palestine cease to exist.  They could have accomplished that decades ago.  Again, only one side has the power to end the conflict.  You can rail against the Israelis forever, but you can't get beyond that point.  If the Palestinians legitimately renounced violence, if they had a Gandhi or a King, they would have long since had their land and would be living better lives.

But they, with the help of people such as yourself, have become trapped in a cycle of violence they can't break because the Israelis have had the gall not to expose their belly out of politeness again.

      That my friend is called spinning the narrative. You'll never change your mind I see so it's pointless. But the palestinians are violent because someone invaded their home and took away parts not the other way around. It's like you invading and taking control of part of your neighbor's house and then the neighbor gets violent to protect his/her house. And that'' why other people are looking at you funny, you are the offender not the defender here. You're an oppressor, not a hero or a patriot. The stupid narrative of protecting itself through illegal occupation does not stick at all. The occupation is strategic and made to isolate palestinian hubs from each other so that slowly they can incorporate and eat away at larger cities and hubs and slowly, through a process spanning decades, claim the entire piece of land as their own. They never could have done that in one fell swoop as that would cause other nations to attack them. You keep saying that but logically Israel might not even exist if they conquered all of Palestine in one fell swoop. Things don't work as blatantly as that and in such a direct manner. They want a world where suddenly people realize there's no more a Palestine, not one where it's breaking news all around the world.  



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also