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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel: the new face of apartheid - Discuss

Helloplite said:
Aeolus451 said:
More lefties hating on Jews I take it?

Are you bent on demeaning the term Anti-Semitism I take it? Learn to distinguish between criticism of a state, and an act of hatred and discrimination against a people.

I didn't say anything about antisemitism or the hate of. Hating on something has a different meaning.



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h2ohno said:
Come back when you have any proposals that address the issue of the presence of genocidal terrorist groups actively trying to kill as many Israelis as they can. Otherwise that is the equivalent of "It is the US that is a sovereign state and therefore the onus of responsibility falls on the US to provide some sort of accomodation. The optimal solution would be for ISIS/Al Qaeda to become an independent state."

And on top of that, even Netanyahu has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state, and several Israeli governments have made concrete offers to give the Palestinians a state. All Arafat and Abbas had to do was say 'yes' in 2000 and 2008 and there'd be an independent Palestine.

A real long-term solution would involve the complete replacement of all school textbooks textbooks used in Gaza and the West Bank that teach anti-Semitsm, deny the existence of Israel, and glorify martyrtom. All denials of any Jewish connection to the land, to Jerusalem, or of the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem must stop. Mosques and media must stop preaching Jihad and start acknowledging that Jews are human beings. After a number of years of this, maybe the Palestinians will be in a position where any accommodation that ends with a Jewish state still around in any borders would not be an insult to Muslim and Arab honor. As long as this incitement continues, the terrorist groups will enjoy more popular support than any peace deal.

You may think that it is the side with the greater physical power that has the onus to end the conflict, but I say that when there is nothing that the stronger side can do to make the other side stop trying to murder it, the onus is on the side that is actively trying to destroy the other. Every concession Israel has made, from releasing prisoners with innocent blood on their hands to removing every last Jew from Gaza, has been treated not as a goodwill gesture but as a sign that terrorism works and should be continued.

Come back when you have any proposals? What is this sort of reprisal? This is a discussion on a forum - no one here is qualified to make concrete proposals, or has access to the right circles required to make a proposal viable. In fact, this sort of attitude and response to my comments betrays a contempt for the concept of debate and the relevance of deliberation. No, I will not concede to your bullying.

 

I have never said that "Jews aren't people" if you paid any attention to what I said. On the contrary, I am quite aware of the humanity of the Jewish people. It just so happens that Palestinians are people also. Lumping everyone together and deriving positions from an assumed generality is the pinnacle of bias. 

 

Now what you described here, on how propaganda in education is implemented to radicalize and perpetuate hatred was actually part of my earlier academic explorations (on modernism, the state, and the employment of propaganda narratives of ethnicity, religion, identity and nation). It is something I am critical of. So step down from your mighty horse and stop assuming everyone who is not showering Israel with praise is somehow malevontly inclined towards the people who live in that country. 

 

All I said is that solutions to intractable conflicts require stepping down from both sides - alongside new ideas, new people, and strong will to restructure institutionally the systems. Yes, it is very vague but I am not the one drafting or handling these negotiations. What have you done to fix this problem, that gives you the right to berate others for not providing precise solutions? 



Aeolus451 said:
Helloplite said:

Are you bent on demeaning the term Anti-Semitism I take it? Learn to distinguish between criticism of a state, and an act of hatred and discrimination against a people.

I didn't say anything about antisemitism or the hate of. Hating on something has a different meaning.

So you didn't instantly (and incorrectly) associate "lefties" (which is terribly vague, and given how you have in mind a group of people which you probably also call "liberals" -- also wrong) with Anti-Semitism? I am imagining things then, sorry.



Helloplite said:
Aeolus451 said:

I didn't say anything about antisemitism or the hate of. Hating on something has a different meaning.

So you didn't instantly (and incorrectly) associate "lefties" (which is terribly vague, and given how you have in mind a group of people which you probably also call "liberals" -- also wrong) with Anti-Semitism? I am imagining things then, sorry.

Yes, you are. At least you admitted it. 😜



Helloplite said:
h2ohno said:
Come back when you have any proposals that address the issue of the presence of genocidal terrorist groups actively trying to kill as many Israelis as they can. Otherwise that is the equivalent of "It is the US that is a sovereign state and therefore the onus of responsibility falls on the US to provide some sort of accomodation. The optimal solution would be for ISIS/Al Qaeda to become an independent state."

And on top of that, even Netanyahu has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state, and several Israeli governments have made concrete offers to give the Palestinians a state. All Arafat and Abbas had to do was say 'yes' in 2000 and 2008 and there'd be an independent Palestine.

A real long-term solution would involve the complete replacement of all school textbooks textbooks used in Gaza and the West Bank that teach anti-Semitsm, deny the existence of Israel, and glorify martyrtom. All denials of any Jewish connection to the land, to Jerusalem, or of the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem must stop. Mosques and media must stop preaching Jihad and start acknowledging that Jews are human beings. After a number of years of this, maybe the Palestinians will be in a position where any accommodation that ends with a Jewish state still around in any borders would not be an insult to Muslim and Arab honor. As long as this incitement continues, the terrorist groups will enjoy more popular support than any peace deal.

You may think that it is the side with the greater physical power that has the onus to end the conflict, but I say that when there is nothing that the stronger side can do to make the other side stop trying to murder it, the onus is on the side that is actively trying to destroy the other. Every concession Israel has made, from releasing prisoners with innocent blood on their hands to removing every last Jew from Gaza, has been treated not as a goodwill gesture but as a sign that terrorism works and should be continued.

Come back when you have any proposals? What is this sort of reprisal? This is a discussion on a forum - no one here is qualified to make concrete proposals, or has access to the right circles required to make a proposal viable. In fact, this sort of attitude and response to my comments betrays a contempt for the concept of debate and the relevance of deliberation. No, I will not concede to your bullying.

 

I have never said that "Jews aren't people" if you paid any attention to what I said. On the contrary, I am quite aware of the humanity of the Jewish people. It just so happens that Palestinians are people also. Lumping everyone together and deriving positions from an assumed generality is the pinnacle of bias. 

 

Now what you described here, on how propaganda in education is implemented to radicalize and perpetuate hatred was actually part of my earlier academic explorations (on modernism, the state, and the employment of propaganda narratives of ethnicity, religion, identity and nation). It is something I am critical of. So step down from your mighty horse and stop assuming everyone who is not showering Israel with praise is somehow malevontly inclined towards the people who live in that country. 

 

All I said is that solutions to intractable conflicts require stepping down from both sides - alongside new ideas, new people, and strong will to restructure institutionally the systems. Yes, it is very vague but I am not the one drafting or handling these negotiations. What have you done to fix this problem, that gives you the right to berate others for not providing precise solutions? 

It's not people criticizing Israel that bothers me.  It's people making observations or suggestions when they don't know what they're talking about or that would make things worse.  As for what I do, a lot of my job is dealing with issues directly stemming from this particular conflict.  I've worked with NGOs, journalists, people at the UN, even a British military leader.  I've seen first-hand the BS which is spouted about this conflict, how facts that don't fit a particular narrative are ignored by mainstream media outlets, how the media is manipulated, the double standards that are applied, and how foreigners in general make things worse whenever they try to 'help.'

This isn't academics.  Real people are dying, and ignoring, twisting, or making facts up, or basing what needs to be done mostly on current power dynamics instead of the actual problems, is not going to help at best and could easily make things worse.  Israel will have to make concessions and sacrifices under any peace agreement.  Academic theory is all well and good, but you still have to take into account the fact that these are 2 very different societies with values that are different from each other and from your own, each with their own eccentricities.

It's very easy to tell Israelis and Palestinians from thousands of miles away what they should or shouldn't do.  But in the end, it's Tel Aviv that will have to endure incessant rocket attacks and innocents in the West Bank that will get bombed in response when the fantasies of ignorant westerners blow up.

Do I think the Palestinian side is the one that needs to make the larger step towards peace?  Yes.  But that's from observing the history of the conflict from the last 25 years.  Israel's leadership has agreed in principle to a Palestinian State and has sought to negotiate borders and security arrangements, and in the mid-2000s was prepared to unilaterally withdraw from most of the West Bank before Hamas' takeover of Gaza proved that that wouldn't work.  The other side still cannot accept the existence of a Jewish state and the demands of its most moderate leadership amount to the destruction of Israel.  When the Palestinians have a leadership that actually cares about their own people then I think peace will be possible, even if the society remains largely anti-Semitic.

Te Palestinians are victims.  They were pawns of the Arab states for decades, and of the Soviet Union.  Now the Soviets are gone, the Arab states have pretty much abandoned them, their leadership is divided between genocidal lunatics and corrupt old men who care for nothing other than lining their pockets and staying in power, and they're still being used as pawns by Iran and radicals in the west who are using them as a weapon against the US.  And on top of that, the world as a whole has countenanced their being held in refugee camps for decades and actual Apartheid carried out against them in many places throughout the Middle East.

The OP is a perfect example of the sort of thing I cannot stand.  It says that Israel passed a law declaring itself exclusively Jewish and banning Arabic, when not only does the law not do anything of the sort, it explicitly says that Arabic has a "special status."  Is the OP lying, or is he just ignorant and falling for propaganda?  I don't know, but in the end it really doesn't matter.  It's spreading misinformation that a lot of people are predisposed to believe, and this sort of thing unfortunately can have deadly ramifications outside of the Middle East, especially in Europe, where Jews are often afraid to walk outside wearing anything that would give away the fact that they are Jewish.

So yes.  I want people to actually know what they are talking about when they deal with this issue, because if there were fewer lies, not only would it be easier to come up with a workable solution in the Middle East, but there'd be fewer Holocaust survivors murdered in Paris, fewer Jews assaulted for wearing yalmukes in Berlin, fewer attempts to ban all pro-Israel thought at universities, and maybe more energy would be devoted to ending the far worse humanitarian situations around the Middle East and the rest of the world instead of focusing so much effort and hatred on what would otherwise be a relatively minor border conflict.  There are people who are crazy enough that seeing a headline 'Israel is Apartheid' and reading about Israel banning Arabic would set them off to go and attack and maybe try to kill the nearest Jew.  So when I see threads like this, I cannot help but wonder if this is what is going to cause the next attempt to bomb a Jewish museum, shoot up a Jewish school, or just someone to go and shout every offensive slur in the book at a group of Jewish kids walking to school.  This is a very real problem that I have been dealing with for years.  These lies kill.



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NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

See. You can't do it. You skipped the part where I said name one thing Israel did deliberately but you just called it the condition of war. You're using excuses for Israel that you won't use for Palestine. Your bias is shining like the sun. You don't seem to realize that Israel doesn't live in a bubble. There are consequences to drastic action and if Israel just jumped in and conquered all of Palestine all at once, there'll be a lot of enemies willing to wage war on it. That's why it's doing it slowly. And it has no empathy for Palestine I can tell you that and I don't see Israel seeing palestinians as anything other than subhuman. You're blaming an occupied land for fighting for it's land and resources and freedom. If there's no pushback from Palestine, Israel can do whatever the hell it pleases. Most people think Israel is to blame and the reason it's still going on isn't because most people are wrong, it's because the world as a whole hasn't really done anything to stop it. There are no sanctions on these countries. Israel is getting tons of weaponry still. Israel continues to increase it's illegal settlements. Maybe Israel is being too cautious. Maybe they can conquer Palestine and we still won't do anything. Because hamas is no threat to Israel and it's "self defence force". The IDF is far more advanced and just needs an excuse like Hamas to further their agenda and propaganda

You actually didn't ask me to name something Israel did wrong.  You only asked me to acknowledge that they had.  Which I did.  I will also acknowledge that American soldiers committed crimes during WWII or any other war.  No army filled with armed young people in the heightened state of conflict is going to be pristine.

However, the state of conflict exists because of Palestinian hate.  If Israel were to be left to live in peace, the state of war would cease to exist and neither side would commit them.  The overall blame, thus, remains on the aggressors.

And the last part of your post really just constitutes its own combination of paranoia and propaganda.  You do the Palestinians a disservice excusing their behavior that, in the end, mostly hurts them.  But that is the world we live in.

We've been at this for a while. I feel like we are going in circles. Although your confidence as if you live in the minds of israelis and see their desire for peace and the minds of Palestinians and their supposed hate doesn't really make much sense to me. Also putting the blame on the young soldiers instead of their command for both US and Israel is also unsettling to me. I feel as if you're so ingrained to look at it from an Israeli perspective, it makes me think you are from there. While looking at palestinians through this single, one dimensional, almost cartoonish lens is also not helping your arguments. I feel like we've both done poorly to convince the other of anything. I end this by going back to the point I started with- I just want the war, oppression, death, poverty and hate to end no matter if plaestine is left standing or Israel or neither of them. There's been enough bloodshed on both sides and enough hate and enough resentment. There's a saying in my country which roughly translates to: " You can'' clap with one hand." And it basically means something wrong doesn't happen one-sidedly. That's all I have to say and I think we should end this discussion with one final reply 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also