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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel: the new face of apartheid - Discuss

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

That my friend is called spinning the narrative. You'll never change your mind I see so it's pointless. But the palestinians are violent because someone invaded their home and took away parts not the other way around. It's like you invading and taking control of part of your neighbor's house and then the neighbor gets violent to protect his/her house. And that'' why other people are looking at you funny, you are the offender not the defender here. You're an oppressor, not a hero or a patriot. The stupid narrative of protecting itself through illegal occupation does not stick at all. The occupation is strategic and made to isolate palestinian hubs from each other so that slowly they can incorporate and eat away at larger cities and hubs and slowly, through a process spanning decades, claim the entire piece of land as their own. They never could have done that in one fell swoop as that would cause other nations to attack them. You keep saying that but logically Israel might not even exist if they conquered all of Palestine in one fell swoop. Things don't work as blatantly as that and in such a direct manner. They want a world where suddenly people realize there's no more a Palestine, not one where it's breaking news all around the world.  

I'm afraid that it is you that is spinning the narrative.  Might I remind you who attacked whom in 1948 and 1967?  Israel gained those territories in defensive wars and became considerably safer as a result.  They could have gobbled it all up long ago, but did not.  Despite what you say, Israel would have been better off doing so long ago and ending the question instead of letting it linger for another half century.

As for Israel taking the whole thing, that's conspiracy theory.  Not worth talking about except to again point out that you hurt the Palestinians by perpetuating a myth instead of demanding that they forsake violence and make peace with their neighbors.

Again, the only people capable of stopping the cycle of violence are the Palestinians. .

  That's your theory. Mine's what I told you. Neither of us are in the minds of the decision makers of Palestine and Israel. I just want it to end either way.

 .     Ignore this line. Vgchartz gone insane. Weird coding faultgn



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

  That's your theory. Mine's what I told you. Neither of us are in the minds of the decision makers of Palestine and Israel. I just want it to end either way.

Israel's has had doves and hawks over the years.  Nothing changed.  You want things to change, there's only one thing that's never been tried.  Palestinians renouncing violence and hatred.

Are you kidding me? Palestinians have marched for peace and they have been trampled upon by israel. I'm not talking about the decision makers but the normal people of Palestine have begged, pleaded and asked for peace ever since this debacle started. You clearly don't know anything about Palestinians and have only listened to the Israeli side of things. You're unwillingness to admit that israelis have done even one thing wrong and Palestinians have done even one thing right  shows your bias. There's no point in arguing with someone who is essentially a fanboy of Israel



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

Are you kidding me? Palestinians have marched for peace and they have been trampled upon by israel. I'm not talking about the decision makers but the normal people of Palestine have begged, pleaded and asked for peace ever since this debacle started. You clearly don't know anything about Palestinians and have only listened to the Israeli side of things. You're unwillingness to admit that israelis have done even one thing wrong and Palestinians have done even one thing right  shows your bias. There's no point in arguing with someone who is essentially a fanboy of Israel

You've been defending Palestinian violence as justified for about a week, and now you're claiming the Palestinians are peaceful?

As for Israeli wrongdoing, please re-read my posts.

You do realize Palestine has a population of millions. And how many of them are fighting? And how many of them are just trying to live their lives? And how many of them are advocating for peace? I said the people of Palestine, not the ones in power want peace which can be true whether the leadership doesn't want peace or whether the leadership wants peace. Just as I don't blame the ordinary Israelis for their government's vile action, I also don't blame the palestinians for what their government does.It's like you're trying to ignore the nuances of language i am speaking. Also you have been constantly attacking Palestine and blaming everything on Palestine. So no need to re-read your post. That's all you say so what's your point?



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

NightlyPoe said:

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

I hope and believe that most people in Israel and Palestine are sick and tired to the evergoing conflict and they want it to end and want peace. But with such long history the revenge-mentality is strong on both sides and those in power (both sides) will ensure that the conflict will continue, as it will keep them in power and they will use it as fuel, destroying any attemps on restoring peace.

With Israel and Palestine it seem to be a David and Goliath situation (without an end), with israel being the Goliath, thats one of the reasons why Israel is seen as the worse of the two. That´s also why I think that they have more power on desiding whether the conflict goes on or ends. With USA defending Israel, it lets Israel to do things that no civiliced country should do, and thats one of the problems and reasons why Israel doesn´t even want peace.



PSintend0 said:
NightlyPoe said:

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

I hope and believe that most people in Israel and Palestine are sick and tired to the evergoing conflict and they want it to end and want peace. But with such long history the revenge-mentality is strong on both sides and those in power (both sides) will ensure that the conflict will continue, as it will keep them in power and they will use it as fuel, destroying any attemps on restoring peace.

With Israel and Palestine it seem to be a David and Goliath situation (without an end), with israel being the Goliath, thats one of the reasons why Israel is seen as the worse of the two. That´s also why I think that they have more power on desiding whether the conflict goes on or ends. With USA defending Israel, it lets Israel to do things that no civiliced country should do, and thats one of the problems and reasons why Israel doesn´t even want peace.

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?



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NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

You do realize Palestine has a population of millions. And how many of them are fighting? And how many of them are just trying to live their lives? And how many of them are advocating for peace? I said the people of Palestine, not the ones in power want peace which can be true whether the leadership doesn't want peace or whether the leadership wants peace. Just as I don't blame the ordinary Israelis for their government's vile action, I also don't blame the palestinians for what their government does.It's like you're trying to ignore the nuances of language i am speaking. Also you have been constantly attacking Palestine and blaming everything on Palestine. So no need to re-read your post. That's all you say so what's your point?

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

Is it though? You're saying Israel tries it's best but there are oopsie moments. That's what I mean by fault. As in premeditated, preconceived to cause damage and hurt to Palestine. I haven't seen you say that anywhere. You can say it now though. Just one thing that Israel DELIBERATELY did wrong. You have a lot of options like killing children, beating and assaulting children while cursing and laughing, killing journalists, killing innocents and innocent bystanders, building that freakish containment wall that basically makes Palestine like a camp etc etc etc. Just say one thing right now.



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JWeinCom said:

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?

There could be multiple reasons and some have been already stated here. Why would the Palestinians want to keep the conflict going? For both one of the reasons is the revenge-mentality, they have to revenge all the wrong that has been done against them.



PSintend0 said:
JWeinCom said:

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?

There could be multiple reasons and some have been already stated here. Why would the Palestinians want to keep the conflict going? For both one of the reasons is the revenge-mentality, they have to revenge all the wrong that has been done against them.

I have yet to see a valid reason presented.

 

As for the Palestinians there actually are lots of reasons.  The first and most obvious is the land.  It is their stated goal to force Israel to return to pre 1967 borders.  They can at least in theory accomplish this.  Israel does not want the land in Gaza, or rather cannot feasibly take it while remaining a Jewish democracy.

There is also the political pressure that gets put on Israel in the aftermath of these attacks.  Palestine cannot physically conquer Israel, the only path is through international pressure on Israel.  Their current strategy does help meet that goal.

The third is religious.  Israel, despite its Jewish cultural identity, is largely a secular society.  Hamas however is a fundamentalist organization that adheres to an (in their mind) literal interpretation of Quran.  Their explicit goal is to spread Islam, and this is often more important to them than the security of their citizen.

Fourth, there is currently a blockade on Gaza instituted by Egypt and Israel.  This blockade was instituted in response to Hamas' refusal to renounce violence (which also led to them forfeiting international aid for their people).  

So those are the reasons that it is beneficial to Hamas to keep the conflict going. Mainly because Israel has something they want.  Israel already has it, so attacking or prolonging the conflict does nothing except cost them money and worsen their international position.  



NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

Is it though? You're saying Israel tries it's best but there are oopsie moments.

What I'm saying is that armed conflict has ugly and dehumanizing consequences.

I will also say that it'd be a lot worse of Israel wasn't a decent country at its core.

See. You can't do it. You skipped the part where I said name one thing Israel did deliberately but you just called it the condition of war. You're using excuses for Israel that you won't use for Palestine. Your bias is shining like the sun. You don't seem to realize that Israel doesn't live in a bubble. There are consequences to drastic action and if Israel just jumped in and conquered all of Palestine all at once, there'll be a lot of enemies willing to wage war on it. That's why it's doing it slowly. And it has no empathy for Palestine I can tell you that and I don't see Israel seeing palestinians as anything other than subhuman. You're blaming an occupied land for fighting for it's land and resources and freedom. If there's no pushback from Palestine, Israel can do whatever the hell it pleases. Most people think Israel is to blame and the reason it's still going on isn't because most people are wrong, it's because the world as a whole hasn't really done anything to stop it. There are no sanctions on these countries. Israel is getting tons of weaponry still. Israel continues to increase it's illegal settlements. Maybe Israel is being too cautious. Maybe they can conquer Palestine and we still won't do anything. Because hamas is no threat to Israel and it's "self defence force". The IDF is far more advanced and just needs an excuse like Hamas to further their agenda and propaganda



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Aeolus451 said:
More lefties hating on Jews I take it?

Are you bent on demeaning the term Anti-Semitism I take it? Learn to distinguish between criticism of a state, and an act of hatred and discrimination against a people.