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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel: the new face of apartheid - Discuss

PSintend0 said:
JWeinCom said:

The issue is the seemingly disproportionate attention placed on Israel.  I get that two wrongs don't make a right, but one does have to question why Israel making hebrew the official language is so offensive when over in Saudi Arabia non-muslims are not allowed to hold citizenship, and blasphemy against Islam is punishable by death.  

Its the direction thats most important. Saudi Arabia just gave women the right to drive cars, of course there are countles other things that they should also change, but at least they are changing for the better not for worse, which seems to be the case with Israel. Also Israel is often kind of paired with western countries and with that, one might expect more from Israel than from for example Iran. Turkey has now been also heavily critiqued for its actions that have taken it to the wrong direction, same goes for Poland and Russia. The fact that many seem to blindly defend Israel seemingly just because its the holy Jewish nation that god promised to jews or something, makes the opposition more aggrevated.

This pretty much demonstrates the point.  Saudi Arabia is without a doubt an apartheid state.  If you are not a muslim, or rather not the right kind of muslim, your rights are severely restricted, you are typically unable to participate in in politics, if you are Jewish you cannot even enter the country, etc.  The fact that they have made one concession to human rights does not change this fact.  

Calling Israel the new face of apartheid is laughable when you compare the rights of Arabs in Israel (who face some discrimination but enjoy most of the benefits of citizenship) to non-muslims in the Middle East (in most countries they have practically no rights).  In terms of human rights violations, Israel represents a very small part of the problem.  A part worth noting, but a small part.  They somehow draw the majority of international condemnation.  



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JWeinCom said:
PSintend0 said:

Its the direction thats most important. Saudi Arabia just gave women the right to drive cars, of course there are countles other things that they should also change, but at least they are changing for the better not for worse, which seems to be the case with Israel. Also Israel is often kind of paired with western countries and with that, one might expect more from Israel than from for example Iran. Turkey has now been also heavily critiqued for its actions that have taken it to the wrong direction, same goes for Poland and Russia. The fact that many seem to blindly defend Israel seemingly just because its the holy Jewish nation that god promised to jews or something, makes the opposition more aggrevated.

This pretty much demonstrates the point.  Saudi Arabia is without a doubt an apartheid state.  If you are not a muslim, or rather not the right kind of muslim, your rights are severely restricted, you are typically unable to participate in in politics, if you are Jewish you cannot even enter the country, etc.  The fact that they have made one concession to human rights does not change this fact.  

Calling Israel the new face of apartheid is laughable when you compare the rights of Arabs in Israel (who face some discrimination but enjoy most of the benefits of citizenship) to non-muslims in the Middle East (in most countries they have practically no rights).  In terms of human rights violations, Israel represents a very small part of the problem.  A part worth noting, but a small part.  They somehow draw the majority of international condemnation.  

Face palm :P You completely missed my point.

Regarding to civil rights, equality and such, with what countries would you group Israel with? And in your opinion, is Israel going to the right direction?



It's the ying/yang effect. When a country is dealt such a blow, it must carry out the same resentment eventually. I'm all for world peace and love the average jew, but you can't say anything these days without being labelled anti semitic.



PSintend0 said:
JWeinCom said:

This pretty much demonstrates the point.  Saudi Arabia is without a doubt an apartheid state.  If you are not a muslim, or rather not the right kind of muslim, your rights are severely restricted, you are typically unable to participate in in politics, if you are Jewish you cannot even enter the country, etc.  The fact that they have made one concession to human rights does not change this fact.  

Calling Israel the new face of apartheid is laughable when you compare the rights of Arabs in Israel (who face some discrimination but enjoy most of the benefits of citizenship) to non-muslims in the Middle East (in most countries they have practically no rights).  In terms of human rights violations, Israel represents a very small part of the problem.  A part worth noting, but a small part.  They somehow draw the majority of international condemnation.  

Face palm :P You completely missed my point.

Regarding to civil rights, equality and such, with what countries would you group Israel with? And in your opinion, is Israel going to the right direction?

I didn't miss your point... I just didn't think it was a good point.

Firstly, Saudi Arabia made one concession to modern humanistic society, something which has not been an issue in other countries for about 100 years.  That's an isolated example, and doesn't indicate that they are on the right path.  They've also been taking some very questionable actions in interfering militarily in Yemen, and economically in Qatar.  They're engaging in a Cold War with Iran, and if either side loses the results could be absolutely disastrous.  So, I don't think you've demonstrated Saudi Arabia is on the right track.  They're doing some things right, and some things wrong.

If we assume that they are however, I still don't agree.  When a country is so far behind in human rights, I don't think we should just let them do whatever they will as long as they're making some progress, and focus on places that have less severe issues.  If you're an ER doctor, and there's a patient with severed thumb, and a patient that's having a stroke, you take care of the stroke patient first.  Not that a severed thumb isn't serious, but it's a different degree.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by grouping countries in terms of civil rights.  In terms of the rights they have, Israel is more or less in line with westernized countries in terms of the rights that people have (actually in Israel, not necessarily in Palestine).

In terms of right or wrong direction, that's hard to say.  I'm not a big fan of Netenyahu.  I don't think moving the embassy to Jerusalem accomplishes anything aside from unnecessary antagonism, and I don't think this move to make Hebrew the official language really does anything productive either.  They have a lot of the nationalistic chest beating that's going on in other countries, but in a country in such a volatile situation, it's more concerning.  I also find the new settlements in the West Bank troublesome considering that the West Bank government has shown itself to be far more open to peace than Hamas.  Unfortunately there is a far right contingency in Israel who, similar to Hamas, feels that the land is divinely granted to them, and care more about what they think god wants than what is actually good for the peace process.  The right wing party needs to appease that religious coalition to keep more progressive Israelis from being elected.

On the other hand, there are some things Israel is doing well.  They continue to provide valuable intelligence to the US to help keep us safe, they continuously provide medical and technological breakthroughs, and the country is becoming more secular, which I think generally leads to improved human rights.  There are programs being made to help Arab citizens in their border, and I think that they are generally doing an ok job of treating minority citizens, particularly compared to other countries in their region.

I think their response to Gaza in generally has been appropriate (which is not to say every single action was justified).  Hamas has, this has been documented by the UN, engaged in tactics such as storing rockets from schools, encouraging children to protest in dangerous areas, and of course suicide bombings.  The blockade on Gaza is not a unilateral Israeli decision, as it is also enforced by Egypt, and lifting the restriction has at times led to tunnels being built with intent to attack Israel, and more rockets being constructed.  That's not to say the situation isn't completely fucked, and it doesn't suck miserably to live in Gaza, but I attribute that more to Hamas.

To sum it up, I think "right direction wrong direction" is overly simplistic.  I agree with some of Israel's actions, and not others past and present.  In general, I think Israel's primary concern is the safety of its own citizenry.  They don't have anything to gain from the continued conflict with Gaza, aside from diminishing the potential threat, and I believe that if they were convinced that there were no longer a threat they would most likely end the conflict (although as I mentioned earlier maybe their actions in the West Bank undermine this).  If Hamas were similarly inclined, I think an agreement would probably be reached.

So that should answer that.  So here's my question.  Is the humanitarian situation in Israel superior to surrounding countries?  Do you think terms like "the new face of apartheid" are justified?



To understand the situation with regards to Israel, we need to consider the context. Israel was conceived in part due to widespread and long-standing antisemitism and a major impetus for its ultimate founding was the build-up to WWII and the Holocaust. Jewish immigrants to the Palestine area were not warmly received and the creation of the state of Israel was met with immediate warfare: for the purpose of the destruction of Israel. Whether running hot or cold, express or implied, that basic situation of the Arabs trying to destroy Israel has persisted ever since.

If the ongoing Israeli response to that aggression has not been ideal -- and when has war ever been fought in an ideal manner? -- it should still be understood as essentially self-defense. If the wider Arab world was prepared to live in peace, and accept a genuine "two-state solution," so would Israel. It is because powerful elements of the Arab world insist on the ultimate destruction of Israel that this peace has not yet been achieved.



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NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

That my friend is called spinning the narrative. You'll never change your mind I see so it's pointless. But the palestinians are violent because someone invaded their home and took away parts not the other way around. It's like you invading and taking control of part of your neighbor's house and then the neighbor gets violent to protect his/her house. And that'' why other people are looking at you funny, you are the offender not the defender here. You're an oppressor, not a hero or a patriot. The stupid narrative of protecting itself through illegal occupation does not stick at all. The occupation is strategic and made to isolate palestinian hubs from each other so that slowly they can incorporate and eat away at larger cities and hubs and slowly, through a process spanning decades, claim the entire piece of land as their own. They never could have done that in one fell swoop as that would cause other nations to attack them. You keep saying that but logically Israel might not even exist if they conquered all of Palestine in one fell swoop. Things don't work as blatantly as that and in such a direct manner. They want a world where suddenly people realize there's no more a Palestine, not one where it's breaking news all around the world.  

I'm afraid that it is you that is spinning the narrative.  Might I remind you who attacked whom in 1948 and 1967?  Israel gained those territories in defensive wars and became considerably safer as a result.  They could have gobbled it all up long ago, but did not.  Despite what you say, Israel would have been better off doing so long ago and ending the question instead of letting it linger for another half century.

As for Israel taking the whole thing, that's conspiracy theory.  Not worth talking about except to again point out that you hurt the Palestinians by perpetuating a myth instead of demanding that they forsake violence and make peace with their neighbors.

Again, the only people capable of stopping the cycle of violence are the Palestinians. .

  That's your theory. Mine's what I told you. Neither of us are in the minds of the decision makers of Palestine and Israel. I just want it to end either way.

 .     Ignore this line. Vgchartz gone insane. Weird coding faultgn



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

  That's your theory. Mine's what I told you. Neither of us are in the minds of the decision makers of Palestine and Israel. I just want it to end either way.

Israel's has had doves and hawks over the years.  Nothing changed.  You want things to change, there's only one thing that's never been tried.  Palestinians renouncing violence and hatred.

Are you kidding me? Palestinians have marched for peace and they have been trampled upon by israel. I'm not talking about the decision makers but the normal people of Palestine have begged, pleaded and asked for peace ever since this debacle started. You clearly don't know anything about Palestinians and have only listened to the Israeli side of things. You're unwillingness to admit that israelis have done even one thing wrong and Palestinians have done even one thing right  shows your bias. There's no point in arguing with someone who is essentially a fanboy of Israel



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

Are you kidding me? Palestinians have marched for peace and they have been trampled upon by israel. I'm not talking about the decision makers but the normal people of Palestine have begged, pleaded and asked for peace ever since this debacle started. You clearly don't know anything about Palestinians and have only listened to the Israeli side of things. You're unwillingness to admit that israelis have done even one thing wrong and Palestinians have done even one thing right  shows your bias. There's no point in arguing with someone who is essentially a fanboy of Israel

You've been defending Palestinian violence as justified for about a week, and now you're claiming the Palestinians are peaceful?

As for Israeli wrongdoing, please re-read my posts.

You do realize Palestine has a population of millions. And how many of them are fighting? And how many of them are just trying to live their lives? And how many of them are advocating for peace? I said the people of Palestine, not the ones in power want peace which can be true whether the leadership doesn't want peace or whether the leadership wants peace. Just as I don't blame the ordinary Israelis for their government's vile action, I also don't blame the palestinians for what their government does.It's like you're trying to ignore the nuances of language i am speaking. Also you have been constantly attacking Palestine and blaming everything on Palestine. So no need to re-read your post. That's all you say so what's your point?



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

NightlyPoe said:

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

I hope and believe that most people in Israel and Palestine are sick and tired to the evergoing conflict and they want it to end and want peace. But with such long history the revenge-mentality is strong on both sides and those in power (both sides) will ensure that the conflict will continue, as it will keep them in power and they will use it as fuel, destroying any attemps on restoring peace.

With Israel and Palestine it seem to be a David and Goliath situation (without an end), with israel being the Goliath, thats one of the reasons why Israel is seen as the worse of the two. That´s also why I think that they have more power on desiding whether the conflict goes on or ends. With USA defending Israel, it lets Israel to do things that no civiliced country should do, and thats one of the problems and reasons why Israel doesn´t even want peace.



PSintend0 said:
NightlyPoe said:

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

I hope and believe that most people in Israel and Palestine are sick and tired to the evergoing conflict and they want it to end and want peace. But with such long history the revenge-mentality is strong on both sides and those in power (both sides) will ensure that the conflict will continue, as it will keep them in power and they will use it as fuel, destroying any attemps on restoring peace.

With Israel and Palestine it seem to be a David and Goliath situation (without an end), with israel being the Goliath, thats one of the reasons why Israel is seen as the worse of the two. That´s also why I think that they have more power on desiding whether the conflict goes on or ends. With USA defending Israel, it lets Israel to do things that no civiliced country should do, and thats one of the problems and reasons why Israel doesn´t even want peace.

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?