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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel: the new face of apartheid - Discuss

NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

You do realize Palestine has a population of millions. And how many of them are fighting? And how many of them are just trying to live their lives? And how many of them are advocating for peace? I said the people of Palestine, not the ones in power want peace which can be true whether the leadership doesn't want peace or whether the leadership wants peace. Just as I don't blame the ordinary Israelis for their government's vile action, I also don't blame the palestinians for what their government does.It's like you're trying to ignore the nuances of language i am speaking. Also you have been constantly attacking Palestine and blaming everything on Palestine. So no need to re-read your post. That's all you say so what's your point?

My point is that your statement that I found no fault with Israel at all is factually incorrect.

Anyway, I'm sure many Palestinians wish for it to end.  However, the hate within the community has always been too strong to ensure Israel's safety.  It's not just the government causing the violence.

Is it though? You're saying Israel tries it's best but there are oopsie moments. That's what I mean by fault. As in premeditated, preconceived to cause damage and hurt to Palestine. I haven't seen you say that anywhere. You can say it now though. Just one thing that Israel DELIBERATELY did wrong. You have a lot of options like killing children, beating and assaulting children while cursing and laughing, killing journalists, killing innocents and innocent bystanders, building that freakish containment wall that basically makes Palestine like a camp etc etc etc. Just say one thing right now.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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JWeinCom said:

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?

There could be multiple reasons and some have been already stated here. Why would the Palestinians want to keep the conflict going? For both one of the reasons is the revenge-mentality, they have to revenge all the wrong that has been done against them.



PSintend0 said:
JWeinCom said:

What exactly does Israel gain from keeping the conflict going?  How do you recommend they end the conflict?

There could be multiple reasons and some have been already stated here. Why would the Palestinians want to keep the conflict going? For both one of the reasons is the revenge-mentality, they have to revenge all the wrong that has been done against them.

I have yet to see a valid reason presented.

 

As for the Palestinians there actually are lots of reasons.  The first and most obvious is the land.  It is their stated goal to force Israel to return to pre 1967 borders.  They can at least in theory accomplish this.  Israel does not want the land in Gaza, or rather cannot feasibly take it while remaining a Jewish democracy.

There is also the political pressure that gets put on Israel in the aftermath of these attacks.  Palestine cannot physically conquer Israel, the only path is through international pressure on Israel.  Their current strategy does help meet that goal.

The third is religious.  Israel, despite its Jewish cultural identity, is largely a secular society.  Hamas however is a fundamentalist organization that adheres to an (in their mind) literal interpretation of Quran.  Their explicit goal is to spread Islam, and this is often more important to them than the security of their citizen.

Fourth, there is currently a blockade on Gaza instituted by Egypt and Israel.  This blockade was instituted in response to Hamas' refusal to renounce violence (which also led to them forfeiting international aid for their people).  

So those are the reasons that it is beneficial to Hamas to keep the conflict going. Mainly because Israel has something they want.  Israel already has it, so attacking or prolonging the conflict does nothing except cost them money and worsen their international position.  



NightlyPoe said:
Eagle367 said:

Is it though? You're saying Israel tries it's best but there are oopsie moments.

What I'm saying is that armed conflict has ugly and dehumanizing consequences.

I will also say that it'd be a lot worse of Israel wasn't a decent country at its core.

See. You can't do it. You skipped the part where I said name one thing Israel did deliberately but you just called it the condition of war. You're using excuses for Israel that you won't use for Palestine. Your bias is shining like the sun. You don't seem to realize that Israel doesn't live in a bubble. There are consequences to drastic action and if Israel just jumped in and conquered all of Palestine all at once, there'll be a lot of enemies willing to wage war on it. That's why it's doing it slowly. And it has no empathy for Palestine I can tell you that and I don't see Israel seeing palestinians as anything other than subhuman. You're blaming an occupied land for fighting for it's land and resources and freedom. If there's no pushback from Palestine, Israel can do whatever the hell it pleases. Most people think Israel is to blame and the reason it's still going on isn't because most people are wrong, it's because the world as a whole hasn't really done anything to stop it. There are no sanctions on these countries. Israel is getting tons of weaponry still. Israel continues to increase it's illegal settlements. Maybe Israel is being too cautious. Maybe they can conquer Palestine and we still won't do anything. Because hamas is no threat to Israel and it's "self defence force". The IDF is far more advanced and just needs an excuse like Hamas to further their agenda and propaganda



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Aeolus451 said:
More lefties hating on Jews I take it?

Are you bent on demeaning the term Anti-Semitism I take it? Learn to distinguish between criticism of a state, and an act of hatred and discrimination against a people.



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Let's say Israel withdrew from 100% of the West Bank, all of Eastern Jerusalem, ethnically cleansed every Jewish person from the area, ended the blockade of Gaza, and recognized the independent state of Palestine tomorrow. Would that end the conflict? Probably not. Hamas is open about its intentions to wipe out Israel utterly, and no Israeli concessions will change that. Fatah will insist that all descendants of the Palestinian refugees, including the ones will live in the West Bank and Gaza, be allowed to move to Israel instead of accepting them into the new state of Palestine. This will do nothing to mollify Hezbollah, which isn't even Palestinian, or Iran, which is the primary patron and supplier of Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist groups. And this is all assuming a best case scenario where the PA turns into a responsible government that can manage to not be overthrown by Hamas without Israel to protect it in Gaza, which would mean a full-scale war much worse than any of the Gaza operations.

Israel may be the strongest party in the conflict, but with the genocidal fanatics on the other side and the suicidal demands of the supposed moderates the only ways Israel could end the conflict is to utterly defeat its enemies militarily or to cease to exist. There is nothing else Israel could do.that would result in an end to hostilities right now.



If Europe implemented the same mindset, of existentialist dread, it would still be fighting wars between one another state. Radical problems require radical solutions, radical institutions, and according radical changes in mindset.

What you described just here, of an Israel which has "no choice" but to "utterly defeat"* Palestinians is in fact eerily similar to what the Nazis said about the Jews and the concept of a "final solution". There are always choices available. When we say "I have no choice" it only means "I will force my will" and nothing else. Nietzsche reflected on these concepts over a century ago. We still fail to understand that we are better than that.

*Which is dreadful lingo referring to an acceptable high-rate of civilian casualties.



So what should be done about Hamas and Hezbollah? Were there Jewish organizations dedicated to destroying Germany? Were there Jewish terrorist groups blowing up German pizza parlors or public buses? Should the US adopt 'radical solutions' to deal with ISIS and Al Qaeda without having to fight anyone which would entail killing civilians?

In terms of ratios compared to other armed conflicts in history and around the world, civilian casualties inflicted by Israel are actually rather low. especially when considering Hamas' strategy of using human shields and doing everything possible to maximize civilian casualties in Gaza. The IDF goes to farther lengths than any other army, including the US, to not cause civilian casualties. An international team of military experts wrote a report after the 2014 Gaza conflict warning that if the standard Israel upheld during that conflict was to be set as the new international standard no western army would be able to effectively fight a war ever again. Right now, terrorists are launching arson attacks against Israel and burning the southern half of the country, and the IDF is refusing to open fire on the people launching the attacks because Hamas is sending children to do its dirty work. What other military would hold its fire against a group of people deliberately burning thousands of acres and launching firebomb attacks on kindergartens and hospitals?



The uncomfortable facts are that this has already become an intractable conflict. Both sides are in the wrong, but it is Israel that is a sovereign state and therefore the onus of responsibility falls on Israel to provide some sort of accomodation. The optimal solution would be for Palestine to become an independent state, but I realize how and why Israel will view this as a capitulation and dreadful loss of what it considers its "own" space.

The next thing would be a true federation, with two fully independent parliaments and their own legislative power based on respect of the various limits and boundaries established through a mutually acceptable treaty.

But any of these options right now is entirely wishful thinking. Legal and constitutional amendments are fragile and not a panacea. It takes new political voices and perspectives to emerge, from both sides, alongside true efforts at reconciliation, before any solution becomes viable.

The only certain thing is that violence begets violence. Mothers and fathers have mourned their children on both sides. Children are being raised with hatred and irrationality as basis. They are taught, on both sides, to hate first.

Hatred has never brought anything positive for humanity. To advocate as solution the "utter defeat" of Palestinians is not a solution at all. It is just a contract for a future of further conflict, spite, violence, death, and radicalisation.



Come back when you have any proposals that address the issue of the presence of genocidal terrorist groups actively trying to kill as many Israelis as they can. Otherwise that is the equivalent of "It is the US that is a sovereign state and therefore the onus of responsibility falls on the US to provide some sort of accomodation. The optimal solution would be for ISIS/Al Qaeda to become an independent state."

And on top of that, even Netanyahu has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state, and several Israeli governments have made concrete offers to give the Palestinians a state. All Arafat and Abbas had to do was say 'yes' in 2000 and 2008 and there'd be an independent Palestine.

A real long-term solution would involve the complete replacement of all school textbooks textbooks used in Gaza and the West Bank that teach anti-Semitsm, deny the existence of Israel, and glorify martyrtom. All denials of any Jewish connection to the land, to Jerusalem, or of the existence of the Temple in Jerusalem must stop. Mosques and media must stop preaching Jihad and start acknowledging that Jews are human beings. After a number of years of this, maybe the Palestinians will be in a position where any accommodation that ends with a Jewish state still around in any borders would not be an insult to Muslim and Arab honor. As long as this incitement continues, the terrorist groups will enjoy more popular support than any peace deal.

You may think that it is the side with the greater physical power that has the onus to end the conflict, but I say that when there is nothing that the stronger side can do to make the other side stop trying to murder it, the onus is on the side that is actively trying to destroy the other. Every concession Israel has made, from releasing prisoners with innocent blood on their hands to removing every last Jew from Gaza, has been treated not as a goodwill gesture but as a sign that terrorism works and should be continued.