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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS3 to PS4 graphical leap

0D0 said:

I've heard many saying that PS4 is just PS3 graphics with a bit of polishing.

I am the ones with this opinion. Since there are many saying you can quite think about it.

This generation is problably the worst graphical leap of all generations besides there was a lot of expectations like now we will see very realistic rendering, and that is not the case for most games.

Plus, in my opinion, there are long loved franchises forgotten and it makes no appearance in this generation. This represented very badly this generation.



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Bristow9091 said:
Terrible choice for screenshot in the OP lol, it's such a low quality image, lol. But anyone that still thinks the PS4 is only a minor jump over PS3 graphically, five years into the gen, has no idea what they're talking about, there were games coming out in the first year that showed insane visuals... I mean, just look at inFamous Second Son, Sucker Punches first game this gen... even today it still looks bloody gorgeous, and games have only been improving, especially on the first party front! Compare Beyond: Two Souls to Detroit: Become Human and tell me there isn't much of a difference... or go earlier and compare Heavy Rain to Detroit!

I mean sure, early gen games don't always look like a huge leap over the previous consoles, but comparing an end-gen game to an early-gen game isn't the best comparison to be making in the first place.

I'm not the screenshot expert. Can you please select two excellent screenshots one from PS3 and other from PS4 for us to compare?



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


gergroy said:
0D0 said:

I know but, still many don't see how this generation has improved over the best games of last generation, however I reckon after what we've seen this week, it's definitive evidence.

I haven’t really seen many people do that for a while now... beginning of the gen yeah.  Especially comparing stuff to games like last of us, which still might look better than some games that come out...

I still come across with people that say that the leap from PS3 to PS4 is nothing compared to PS2 to PS3. It's like while PS3 was really new generation, PS4 is more like PS3.5.

 

Edit: I've just found one on this thread.

Last edited by 0D0 - on 14 June 2018

God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


Cerebralbore101 said:
Pemalite said:

Not all improvements to visuals increase the workload of artists, some graphics techniques actually do the complete opposite... And speed up the process.

I think we are starting to see more games leverage Photogrammetry and Global Illumination now, which has been fantastic. (Halo, Battlefront. etc'.)

As for the price... Well. Publishers are bloody greedy, let's leave it at that. - They aren't going broke or struggling financially that's for sure.

I get your point, but to have photo-realistic graphics we need artists that can make photo-realistic textures for human faces, as well as other complicated creatures. So you need a group of artists that can both paint at a photo-realistic level, and paint in the freaky skewed way that an unwrap requires. And the texture being created for a photo-realistic model needs to not only be that great, but it needs to be able to handle whatever animation is thrown on the final model as well. And to boot, it needs to look good from all possible angles. 

The only way I can think of to surpass this hurdle is to have some computer program take ten thousand pictures of an actor's face, and then somehow merge them into the ultimate texture. But just getting 3DS Max to do a good unwrap of a complicated model on it's own is damned near impossible. A human always has to step in. So my hopes for such tech are not very high. 

Not trying to challenge you, just a question. Even though the work is hard, wouldn't they be able to reuse the work done among other games on the same generation?



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


Maxosaurus-rex said:
asqarkabab said:
The graphics leap was good but not that big like from the ps1 to ps2 and from ps2 to ps3

Yes, it was. 

That's a thing that I want to challenge here, that the leap wasn't as big as ps2 to ps3.

ps4 is 10x more powerful than ps3 and when I play the best ps3 games and I compare to things like Uncharted 4, it's just jaw-dropping. It's all on the details, I mean the shadows, lightning, texture (skin texture today is just extraordinary), among other details.



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


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CGI-Quality said:
Cerebralbore101 said:
The problem here is that going from NES to SNES, the difference was night and day. Even when comparing late gen NES titles like Kirby to launch titles like Super Mario World. The same thing goes for PS1 to PS2, and PS2 to PS3. But going from Original Xbox to PS3/360 wasn't that big of a difference right out of the gate. So people were dissappointed going from gen 6 to gen 7. And with the PS4 people were rightfully dissapointed going from PS3 to PS4, because the late gen PS3 games looked nearly identical to the launch title PS4 games.

They did? I saw nothing on last gen consoles, even at the end, that could keep up with Killzone: Shadowfall or Ryse graphically. They were considerably more detailed with techniques to a degree that you couldn't get out of those older machines (AF and advanced lighting being two of the biggest things). SSS on characters was also apparent in those two games in ways that even Beyond: Two Souls couldn't match.

And especially when you compare open world games. Infamous:SS looks much better than any linear game on the PS3, let alone the other Infamous games. 



0D0 said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

I get your point, but to have photo-realistic graphics we need artists that can make photo-realistic textures for human faces, as well as other complicated creatures. So you need a group of artists that can both paint at a photo-realistic level, and paint in the freaky skewed way that an unwrap requires. And the texture being created for a photo-realistic model needs to not only be that great, but it needs to be able to handle whatever animation is thrown on the final model as well. And to boot, it needs to look good from all possible angles. 

The only way I can think of to surpass this hurdle is to have some computer program take ten thousand pictures of an actor's face, and then somehow merge them into the ultimate texture. But just getting 3DS Max to do a good unwrap of a complicated model on it's own is damned near impossible. A human always has to step in. So my hopes for such tech are not very high. 

Not trying to challenge you, just a question. Even though the work is hard, wouldn't they be able to reuse the work done among other games on the same generation?

Yes, but only if you want all your in game characters to have the same face. 



CGI-Quality said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Those are all just bells and whistles though. Nothing revolutionary. Sub-Surface Scattering hardly makes a difference unless you are modeling something that is semi-translucent, like the mucous membranes around an alien creature's jaws. I can't tell the difference between AF and No AF, unless I specifically look for it where a texture starts to tile on the floor. Lighting is nice, but you can still get really good looking scenes by baking the lighting in beforehand. There was definitely a huge leap from PS3 to PS4 in the lighting department when it came to open world games. That's because a moving sun makes baked lighting impractical. But lighting is only one thing out of several things that make up a scene.

If you know what you're doing, and know the limitations of your system, you can make things look really great. Did you know that the environmental geometry in Dead Space is so low poly you could run it on a PS2? It only looks so good because of the fantastic texture work. 

Sub-Surface Scattering makes a huge difference, actually. That's why character models have jumped so significantly over the previous gen. Also, even if you can't ell a difference with AF on or off, it is there. 

And yes, that's extra bells and whistles. That's what you're going to get with a new gen. 

Here's a two minute video showing the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKHfOfojF8w Without Ray-Tracing and SSS you can see that the light doesn't go through the alien guy's ears very realistically. With it the light goes through the ears. And that's pretty much the only difference it makes at all. Under the right lighting conditions, with the right environment, you could get some pretty neat results with this. For example; you could have a tropical forest with rays of strong sunlight shining realistically through thousands of SSS'd leaves in the jungle canopy. But not all games are going to use the perfect location for highlighting that type of graphics effect. 



CGI-Quality said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Here's a two minute video showing the difference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKHfOfojF8w Without Ray-Tracing and SSS you can see that the light doesn't go through the alien guy's ears very realistically. With it the light goes through the ears. And that's pretty much the only difference it makes at all. Under the right lighting conditions, with the right environment, you could get some pretty neat results with this. For example; you could have a tropical forest with rays of strong sunlight shining realistically through thousands of SSS'd leaves in the jungle canopy. But not all games are going to use the perfect location for highlighting that type of graphics effect. 

My friend, I work with graphics. Daily. I don’t need that video.

 

Edit: Total Poly Count: 1.05 million, Advanced SSS/AF/Tessellated Character & Tessellated Hair:

 

Character Poly Count: 329K, No SSS/Low AF/No Tessellation On Character nor Hair:

The top image above wouldn't have been possible on any last gen console. The bottom? Easily. And that's one of the thinest examples. Remove all of those advanced features and you're left with a character model that is considerably less detailed.

 The average person doesn't realize it, but today's games are vastly superior to last gen games. So much going on behind the scenes and in the pipeline. They would have been impossible to do on the PS3 or 360.   That's what I'm getting at. No reason for us to not aim for better hardware after the previous has run its course (the PS4 and Xbox One are 5 years old).

Aside from the ear, and some slight differences in the skin/hair visually it is the same. On a technical level the two models are vastly different, but on a visual level it barely looks improved. A two inch wide 100 sided cylinder looks exactly the same as a two inch wide 10,000 sided cylinder, in a 3D Modeling program. That is especially true once you add smoothing groups. Diminishing returns are a huge problem, when it comes to graphics. 

Edit: And that ear only looks better because of a poor retopology job. Add another 2K polys to those ears, and the blockyness goes away. No need to triple the polycount of the entire model. 



People shouldn't judge a new console capabilities from its first games, it's difficult to fully and efficiently use a new console HW power at the beginning, devs must learn to do it, and also dev tools, libraries, system libraries, drivers and OS get improved and optimised with time.



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