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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do you support the U.S. teacher strikes?

SpokenTruth said:

1. Part A. No citations. Not to mention that Oklahoma and Arizona went up and those that went down did so by not even a whole student (except Colorado).

Part B. You must be unaware of the increased work load of teachers over the years.  School funding cuts have forced teachers to take on extra roles.  After school programs, arrival/dismissal operations, etc....  There is further pressure due standardized testing that requires teachers from many states to prepare students for high stakes testing along side the daily curriculum.  Basically, teachers are being asked to do more with less.  Did you forget that a lot of teachers must pay out of pocket for class room supplies?  Are you aware that Trump's new tax plan removed the teacher tax write off? Did you forget that many teachers haven't had a pay increase in a decade as in the case for Oklahoma?

Part C.  You can't dictate current pay for future education methodologies. Just because VR may become a ubuquitious education tool doesn't mean you can underpay teachers now. Also, my wife's classroom has 4 computers.  That's only 1 more computer than I had as a student over 30 years ago.

2. You still don't understand what reauthorizing the ESEA is.
https://www.ed.gov/esea

"The Every Student Succeeds Act (ESSA) was signed by President Obama on December 10, 2015, and represents good news for our nation’s schools. This bipartisan measure reauthorizes the 50-year-old Elementary and Secondary Education Act (ESEA), the nation’s national education law and longstanding commitment to equal opportunity for all students."

Oh...and you still haven't found me a state that doesn't require a Bachelor's degree.  Keep looking.  We'll wait.

3. Did you really just ask why state representatives aren't in lock step with their constituents? How long have you followed politics?

And let me understand your corollary here.  I'm supposed to believe that nationally people agree with the teacher strikes but the people in each states do not? Because that is in your insinuation.

4. Considering points 1 (A, B and C) and 2, you've disproved nothing nor have I shifted goalposts.  If anyone is shifting goalposts, it's you with your future decades argument about how VR, AR and AI should dictate current pay rates.

1. You want citations ? Well here you go ... 

https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/AnnualReports/historicaltables.asp

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018052.pdf

Standardized testing like SATs and NAEPs has existed for decades so that hasn't changed in the last 50 years and I've never heard of a teacher being forced into extracurricular activities so do you have any plausible evidence that systematically shows the entire states or even districts doing this ? And no teachers aren't been asked to do more for less, they are been asked to do the same for a similar salary as they nearly always have for the past decades ... (there's been no significant changes to the curriculum and the paradigm too) 

Classroom supplies are an insignificant part of the equation, students at this point should be responsible for their own damn pieces of paper, pencils, calculators or other supplies and they shouldn't be provided anything more than the necessary handouts which is EXACTLY how I remembered it was handled when we covered our own supplies in our classroom ... 

I don't dictate current pay but technology certainly will and K-12 teaching has awfully similar resemblances to the factory jobs where tons of workers used to be in unions during the peak of the latter's membership but that soon changed after when were both obsoleted by increasing automation and I see that lower level teaching has come to a similar point where it has become so repetitive and so formulaic that we'll soon have solution to those disgruntled teacher and that's by replacing them with some software and hardware! (should deal a massive blow to the teacher's unions) 

2. If ESSA is a reauthorization of ESEA then so it NCLB but if everybody seems to think that there two sets of different laws then precedent should apply as well ...

So you changed from "federally mandated" to "find a state" ? LMAO  

3. @Bold If you mean by "nationally" which includes big states like California, New York, Illinois that highly skews the views of teacher strikes in those states then yeah so not only does your comparison sucks too but so does your data of which you provided anonymous online polls where even I could vote as well! 

4. I have absolutely disproven your points and thoroughly too at that. Your first point was mostly false, you just shifted goal posts in your second point so you had to back track and your third point is plain flawed ... 

I still have yet to see you address the high teacher supply too so if technology can't dictate teacher's compensation then economics will ... 

Last edited by fatslob-:O - on 18 May 2018

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Guild Strikes are cartel.



I agree, I have always thought our priorities as a country (if not perhaps as a species) are so messed up that we pay athletes millions to play games and pay so little to the people that are molding the minds (or at least attempting to) of our future leaders.
I think teachers should be making top dollar and would hope that would provide the very best educators for our kids. I know tenure might screw with the top dollar idea though. I just wish we placed more value on public education. Now when it comes to the cost of college I believe that is way too high.



US education has been terrible for decades. Not sure if more money for the teachers will help the cause but it would be a start.



The_Yoda said:
we pay athletes millions to play games and pay so little to the people that are molding the minds (or at least attempting to) of our future leaders.

I'm all for better teaching wages and conditions, but I never liked this argument. You're comparing world class athletes entertaining millions to the average teacher educating hundreds. The average athlete (the other 99% not in the big leagues) makes WAY less than the average teacher (little to nothing). Anyone teaching millions of people (writing books/making programs/etc) could well be making millions themselves. Same goes for comparisons to world class actors, musicians, entrepreneurs, etc.



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TallSilhouette said:
The_Yoda said:
we pay athletes millions to play games and pay so little to the people that are molding the minds (or at least attempting to) of our future leaders.

I'm all for better teaching wages and conditions, but I never liked this argument. You're comparing world class athletes entertaining millions to the average teacher educating hundreds. The average athlete (the other 99% not in the big leagues) makes WAY less than the average teacher (little to nothing). Anyone teaching millions of people (through writing books or making programs) could well be making millions themselves. Same goes for comparisons to world class actors, musicians, entrepreneurs, etc.

Would it suit you better if I said we spend more on entertainment than on education? 



The_Yoda said:
TallSilhouette said:

I'm all for better teaching wages and conditions, but I never liked this argument. You're comparing world class athletes entertaining millions to the average teacher educating hundreds. The average athlete (the other 99% not in the big leagues) makes WAY less than the average teacher (little to nothing). Anyone teaching millions of people (through writing books or making programs) could well be making millions themselves. Same goes for comparisons to world class actors, musicians, entrepreneurs, etc.

Would it suit you better if I said we spend more on entertainment than on education? 

Sure. Are there any hard numbers for that, though?



numberwang said:
Strikes in a free market are fine. Strikes for government monopoly employees are 'problematic' because they already have benefits like being nearly impossible to fire and the customers have to purchase their 'product' by law with their taxes.

How does that relate to going on strike where public servants demand higher pay and better working conditions? Just because there are safer employments and their salary being paid by taxes, they should accept crappy conditions and low pay? I just didn´t see the correlation between going on strike and being a employed by the government.



TallSilhouette said:
The_Yoda said:

Would it suit you better if I said we spend more on entertainment than on education? 

Sure. Are there any hard numbers for that, though?

I didn't spend a ton of time and I still have questions:

What all falls into the Entertainment bucket?

Does the Education bucket include any government spending and is it primary  and/ or secondary education?

But according to this report :https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/consumer-expenditures/2015/home.htm in the U.S. at least, consumers in 2015 spent 2,842 on entertainment while only spending 1,315 on education.

I was having a hard time finding an apples to apples comparison otherwise.



Jaicee said:

For those who don't know, a wave of (heavily under-reported) strikes organized online by teachers has been sweeping across the U.S. over the last couple months. The first strike wave took place in West Virginia, which won a number of concessions from the state government, inspiring teachers in Oklahoma and now Arizona to join in as well as, to lesser degrees, those in Kentucky and Colorado as well. Educators in these states typically have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet and are saddled with oversized classes, a shortage of textbooks, and frankly a shortage of other teachers because nobody wants the job due to the conditions. In Oklahoma, some 20% of the schools have resorted to four-day school weeks due to funding shortages, which of course only further elevates the burden on teachers. Many schools across these states have even ceased to use heating and air conditioning to save money.

These strikes demand substantial increases in pay for teachers and other school staff, as well as the restoration of pre-recession funding levels and an end to the privatization of public schools that is being advanced by the Trump Administration and supported by state governments (most aggressively by the Republican-controlled ones).

I can only support the action of the teachers. With working under those conditions, having no work at all almost looks like an upgrade.

These actions have been organized by teachers themselves online, not called by their unions. In that connection, the World Socialist Web Site has, in their coverage, made what I think is an important point about the role of the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers -- the main teacher unions -- in this struggle:

 

"In order to carry their struggle forward, teachers in Arizona and Colorado must learn the lessons of the West Virginia and Oklahoma strikes. In each case, the unions sought to isolate the struggle and redirect it behind voting for Democrats in the mid-term elections.

The unions see it as their task to ensure “labor peace.” In a comment to the Washington Post, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, Randi Weingarten ($500,000/year salary), wrote that if the unions are weakened struggles like that in West Virginia “will be multiplied and magnified across the country.”

It is no coincidence that the teachers’ struggle has broken out first in states where the unions have less of a stranglehold. In Arizona, a state with over 50,000 teachers, the Arizona Education Association has fewer than 20,000 members."

Ugh, now that's seriously messed up! No wonder unions are not nearly as well looked upon as they do in Europe.

Unions in this country serve the opposite of their official role anymore. They exist much more to contain and undermine labor actions rather than to represent and advance the interests of the workers they purport to represent. From fast food strikes to these, there are more labor actions happening in this country right now among non-union workers than among those who have unions.

I'm of the persuasion that schools should be public property, funded equally and well (not shortchanged to pay for unnecessary subsidies for industries like oil and natural gas), and run by the teachers who work there and know their students and their individual needs rather than by administrative staff that doesn't.

Mostly this.

However, I don't rule out the mere existence of private schools. Just the playfield needs to be levelled, so students from either public or private schools would have the same education and chances later in life. Private schools can give out benefits in other, non-critical fields, like maybe better and broader food choices, but the education (and level of education) needs to be strictly identical.

So anyway, do you consider yourself a supporter of these strike actions?

Very very much so. Teachers are forming the future of the country, what had been done will get very costly in the future when the US starts to have serious lacking in well educated and specialized personnel.