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Forums - Politics Discussion - Brexiters OUTRAGED after discovering that voting to abolish free movement means movement will no longer be free

KingCherry said:
VGPolyglot said:

And there we have it.

You seem to have a lot to say on this matter, however it appears you don't have a fucking clue, like a lot of others commenting here!

Does it offend you that Japan openly wants to maintain their one race nation status? Or is to okay because they're in Asia? How about Saudi Arabia refusing Muslim asylum seekers, yet offering to build Mosques all over Christian countries as their way of contribution? Do you not see a problem there?

The EU accepts migrants from the Third World, then spreads them out everywhere across Western Europe. Nations who ironically take more out of the EU than they put in, like Poland, The Czech Republic & Hungary are okay, they shun non white migrants to absolutely no criticism or comeback. It's all on countries like the UK, hence the resentment.

Muslim migrants are an absolute disgrace in Britain, the level of crime committed per head is absolutely ridiculous. People born in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Somalia top the unemployment tables. Do you know about Rotherham and the Pakistani child grooming gangs, is this acceptable to you? Now more Muslim migrants are coming in on EU passports, alongside the other feckless migrants who are then branded British after bringing nothing to the table.

It's a dangerous prospect for most, The Coudenhove Kalergi plan in action. People are right to have genuine concerns, the EU is fucking frightening, multiculturalism is cynical, and it appears you're just another useless idiot unwittingly promoting the demise of the West.

You gotta stay on topic. Why are you trying to discuss the ins and outs of immigration as a whole all of a sudden? I'll try to respond to your arguments anyway.

1st bold: Yes.

2nd bold: They didn't force them to take these immigrants. That is exactly why Poland and the Czech Republic could get away with not taking any of them. It was the UK's own decision.

3rd bold: Seems to me like lack of proper integration factors into this. By the way: it's always good to through in a couple of uncited statistics without any sources into a rant about politics. 

4th bold: I lol'd.

5th bold: Belittling your discussion partner(s) and confirming that you can't be taken seriously at once.

You just don't seem fun to be around.



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Making a bigger goverment on top of your government to solve the problems you government can't like this EU bs will never work.



contestgamer said:
Helloplite said:

 Now you are concerned that Turkey is at risk of losing its culture?

 

What do you think will happen once that "quest for diversity" is achieved? People will have a uniform khaki colour, speak desperado, and eat a strange cuisine comprised of bittersweet halal macarons with pizza base, ants, and soya?

 

Do you know just how many things you think are part of someone's culture ... Are imports? Spaghetti? That's Chinese. Tomatoes? South American. Potatoes? Bolivian. And that's only cuisine, so far. 

 

Europe is not being Americanized (see my further point below). America is literally the outcome of Europeanisation. A bunch of Europeans went there, raped and pillaged the local cultures thinking they were in India, proceeded to establish states and borders that were totally alien to the local cultures, and several centuries later you have what you have.

 

The world was first Europeanised, in the most sustained epoch of globalization, transporting through colonialism the state structure and the ideology of nationalism worldwide, then -- after cultural hegemony passed onto USA, it was Americanised through newer concepts of "free world", and market capitalism.

 

Turkey is already a "Europeanised" state. It used to be the Islamic Empire par excellence, commanding power over the Islamic world and beyond for centuries. Then, the nationalist uprisings in the  Balkans set up the stage for the end of the empire and it's eventual Europeanization. That's is literally what Kemal Atatürk did: he established a modern secular state in the European paradigm. Erdogan is now trying to reverse this and return the country to its roots as an Islamic State. Something which I am sure you are a big fan of, what with your wishy-washy "being a nationalist does not mean being a racist" pro-culturalist approach.

Save the hypocrisy. You do not give a damn if Turkey is losing its identity or not. Your closest encounter with Turkish culture probably started and ended with Turkish Delight confections.

Lol, you dont want to have a discussion. You just want to point fingers and call people that disagree with you racist, evidence be damned. Actually I've visited Istanbul multiple times and enjoyed it there. I love Islamic and Asian art and architectural styles more than I do American. But that wont matter to you. I disagree with you, so ergo I'm racist and hate turkey. 

Apologies, for maintaining unnecessarily the momentum here. I will be happy to have an actual conversation, without low remarks about intellect or qualifications. This is not at all what I am saying, however. You somehow worry that Turkey will lose its identity, but you haven't noticed that in a way, it has. This is an inevitable outcome of the interaction between cultures, and to somehow fantasize that Turkey has an oriental character, in this time and age, is misguided. Since you've been to Instanbul, have you been to Levant? Did you see there any "Islamic and Asian art and architectural style"? Did you see the Hagia Sophia and its impressive mixture of Byzantine and Ottoman structures? And, per chance, are you aware that Instanbul is probably one of the least 'representative' cities to visit in Turkey in order to take in the local culture? Instanbul has literally been a hub of cultures, possibly one of the most ancient hubs of globalization itself, in the history of mankind. What you see there, is exactly the outcome of cultures merging, clashing, integrating, and changing. That's the City.

As I said elsewhere, this is not necessarily benign, nor necessarily evil. It is what it is, in the plainest way possible. Are you worried about the Kurds in Turkey, whose culture is also at risk? Do you support that an independent Kurdistan is formed, to protect their  culture, identity, and sense of nationhood?

This is the true face of nationalism. It protects itself behind nice things, while at the same time proceeding to become the basis of a majority of human conflict. It is why a long conversation on whether racism and nationalism are compatible became our subject in the first place. You may hold to a very narrow understanding of what 'racism' is, but ultimately even the fetishization of 'the Orient' is in itself a racist attiude. Don't believe me? Read Edward Said's Orientalism



CuCabeludo said:

Making a bigger goverment on top of your government to solve the problems you government can't like this EU bs will never work.

Then why don't we go in the inverse direction instead? What good is government anyway? 

Hint: This point is between sarcasm and honest Socratic questioning.



contestgamer said:

Because I'm half American/half European. In American I enjoy the multiculturalism, especially here in NYC. Everyone is different, every cuisine is available. It's fun. When I go travelling back to Europe though I'm sick of seeing it becoming more and more Americanized. Same thing when I travel to other overseas countries. I travel because I want to immerse myself in the historic culture of the location, and ONLY its culture - not its culture diluted/mixed with others. When I go to Turkey I want to see Turkish/Islamic culture - I dont want to see it diluted or mixed with other faces/architectural styles/languages and customs. I dont need the whole world to become the same in an ironic quest for diversity.

Do you think that the world outside of America is some kind of museum and that people with different cultures are only allowed to meet in New York?

I'm 100% Bavarian, I like to speak with a strong bavarian accent, and I love many things in our culture, but I also love Japanese video games, turkish food, American music and my Serbian friends. I don't want to travel to have all this.

The mixture of cultures has always been the driving force in human history.

Imagine Europe and America if Europeans in the fifteenth century decided to preserve their medieval ideas and not adopt ancient Greek and Roman culture.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 01 May 2018

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MrWayne said:
contestgamer said:

Because I'm half American/half European. In American I enjoy the multiculturalism, especially here in NYC. Everyone is different, every cuisine is available. It's fun. When I go travelling back to Europe though I'm sick of seeing it becoming more and more Americanized. Same thing when I travel to other overseas countries. I travel because I want to immerse myself in the historic culture of the location, and ONLY its culture - not its culture diluted/mixed with others. When I go to Turkey I want to see Turkish/Islamic culture - I dont want to see it diluted or mixed with other faces/architectural styles/languages and customs. I dont need the whole world to become the same in an ironic quest for diversity.

Do you think that the world outside of America is some kind of museum and that people with different cultures are only allowed to meet in New York?

I am 100% Bavarian, I like to speak with a strong bavarian accent, and I love many things in our culture, but I also love Japanese video games, turkish food, American music and my Serbian friends. I do not want to travel to have all this.

The mixture of cultures has always been the driving force in human history.

Imagine Europe and America if Europeans in the fifteenth century decided to preserve their medieval ideas and not adopt ancient Greek and Roman culture.

I call this problem "shutting the door".  A culture evolves to a certain point or an immigration event place and they try to shut to shut the door on everyone else coming in after (immigration or new cultures).



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

* Thread Announcement * 📣

I see this is getting a bit personal. Everyone needs to be mature about these discussions. I get that they can get touchy, considering the subject matter, but there is no need to start attacking each other. :)



                                                                                                                                                           

MrWayne said:
contestgamer said:

Because I'm half American/half European. In American I enjoy the multiculturalism, especially here in NYC. Everyone is different, every cuisine is available. It's fun. When I go travelling back to Europe though I'm sick of seeing it becoming more and more Americanized. Same thing when I travel to other overseas countries. I travel because I want to immerse myself in the historic culture of the location, and ONLY its culture - not its culture diluted/mixed with others. When I go to Turkey I want to see Turkish/Islamic culture - I dont want to see it diluted or mixed with other faces/architectural styles/languages and customs. I dont need the whole world to become the same in an ironic quest for diversity.

Do you think that the world outside of America is some kind of museum and that people with different cultures are only allowed to meet in New York?

I'm 100% Bavarian, I like to speak with a strong bavarian accent, and I love many things in our culture, but I also love Japanese video games, turkish food, American music and my Serbian friends. I don't want to travel to have all this.

The mixture of cultures has always been the driving force in human history.

Imagine Europe and America if Europeans in the fifteenth century decided to preserve their medieval ideas and not adopt ancient Greek and Roman culture.

This. Bolded for posterity.



Helloplite said:

I do not know who that person is, but it is comforting to know that you still have no idea what you are talking about.

I never intended to make this into a conversation of qualifications, by any means. If you insist, I am a final-year doctoral student of political theory at a University in the United Kingdom. I teach global politics, global security, and democratic theory (three modules) to first and second-year undergraduates at a Russel Group University. In the course of the past five years, I have taught to over 600 individual students, from across the UK, Europe, and the rest of the world. I have spent the last 7 years researching critical global politics and political philosophy, from Aristotle and Plato to Schmitt, Derrida, Foucault and contemporary post-structuralists. I am well versed in all forms of political theory, from the classics to medieval theorists (such as Hobbes and Machiavelli, to the enlightenment period (Rousseau, Tocqueville), American political philosophy (Wilson, Madison, Hamilton), liberalism, nationalism (Ozkirimli, Armstrong, Smith, Gellner), Marxism, structuralism, post-Marxism, anarchism, and post-structuralism.

Personally, the outcomes of BREXIT are of little importance to me -- I will probably not be affected as much as others who are in more perilous and precarious situations, such as low-wage manual labour, etc. As a human being, I am of course concerned that Britain is fast losing its touch with reality and core democratic principles of accountability and human rights. 

You go ahead now, give me your qualifications since this is so important to you and to this conversation (to which you have still not responded -- just branding my position as 'lame crap' is a cop-out, and not much more).

You never intended turn this into a talk of qualifications ? That's some cognitive dissonance you have there as shown in your other subsequent post asking another poster on here to "master" their reading comprehension which is especially ironic since your specialty isn't even self-consistent ... 

Important to me ? LOL, it's important to you since you have the nerve to bring up someone else's education over the internet and prop up whatever you can in a specialty about political science then go on to mention that you're affiliated in some supposed self selective elite educational body like the "Russell Group" as if it was anything special. Aside from some of the obvious big wigs, most of the listed members are grouped in a similar range at the world rankings to my local university that I attend to which isn't even globally renowned too so how does it feel to know that your group ain't all that exclusive or elite like you hyped it up to be ? Haha, If you're that insistent on knowing what I'm pursuing then it's a 4-year engineering program which actually has very strict standards compared to the field of your studies ... (my faculty doesn't even care that half of the students go on to fail their first semester linear algebra course and just a couple semesters ago a professor revealed the final grades of every student in an engineering statics course with one third of them being handed out F's so I'd bet some of the friends who enrolled civil/mechanical won't be seeing each other again) 

"Nationalism was the norm. What you hear now is its death throes." Well shit, you can say that again to the citizens of east asian countries who are vehemently patriotic about their so called "nation" to the point that their paranoid as shit about each other. (nevermind the different languages or the fact that Americans stormed off with their continental army to rebel against Britain) It's no wonder with statements like yours that the different branches of philosophy split up and didn't want to be associated with each other anymore cause the philosophers of logic and natural science wanted some god damned consistency ... 

"As a human being, I am of course concerned that Britain is fast losing its touch with reality and core democratic principles of accountability and human rights." LMFAO, this is just satire at this point since they voted for MORE independence, not less and is probably one of the MOST removed posts from reality I have seen in my entire life so that's saying something ... (the fact that the House of Lords themselves followed through with the legally non-binding referendum just shows *how* much you *actually* know about "politics")

"the price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men" WTF ?! Please tell me that you're shitting with us around here by referencing a two millennium old quote. How the hell is this relevant ? Forget about relevancy, how much more wrong could you get ? 

"European countries have, quite literally, not existed for thousands of years. The birth of the concept of the state emerged through the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648, which literally established the principles of what a state is, what a people is, and what is the relation between the Sovereign of a state, the citizen-subjects, and the nation." Way to shift the goal posts, in case you hadn't realized what he was referring to nations as a sovereign state with centralized powers so did you conveniently forget about the many empires like the Romans or kingdoms across Europe ? 

"Good job distancing yourself from the inherent links between racism and nationalism." Did you seriously just implicate that racism and nationalism are related ? Well that sure puts my previous example of where Americans rebelled against Britain into perspective cause it was a racially driven conflict despite both of them being Caucasians, am I right ? Oops. (Sarcasm) Like seriously, just where did you make this trite up ? Do you even have a biologically grounded understanding of what a "race" is ? Cause you damn sure shouldn't be talking about that subject if you are an educator of one of the highest academic institutions ... (all I keep seeing from you is the surmounting dishonesty in your subsequent posts but I guess "spin" is clearly in your vocabulary since it must come automatically with the professions related to your field) 

Are you aware of the many profoundly mindless rubbish that you've just posted in this thread ? SMDH 

Last edited by fatslob-:O - on 02 May 2018

Let me tl;dr your answer for you: LOL

Fair enough, I guess. No matter what I could have said, your response would still have been the same and we both know it.

 

If my academic background is not good enough for you, then on what basis does yours render you capable of comprehending these concepts? Last time I checked, engineering has very little to do with understanding questions of society, including nationalism. At least I am literally teaching these concepts. What does having stricter criteria for entry or study at "your university" got to do with anything?


By all means, provide me with this biological understanding that I am so lacking. Tell me of these Caucasians. Produce something to counter my points. You have for nothing so far, other than ad hominems and questions that you yourself avoid to provide an answer to. All of your responses here are mere questions and accusations. You can (hopefully) do better than this. if not consider this the end of this one-sided "conversation".

Last edited by Helloplite - on 02 May 2018