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Forums - Politics Discussion - Brexiters OUTRAGED after discovering that voting to abolish free movement means movement will no longer be free

SpokenTruth said:
black8jac said:

There is nothing wrong with nationalism. Only mixed with xenophobia become ugly.

That's a damn hard thing to do as they tend to overlap.  Also, don't confuse patriotism with nationalism.  Nationalism is like patriotism's bigoted brother.

Patriotism and nationalism are intrinsically linked.



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VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

Doesn't matter when it became an official unified nation. They obviously have strong ties to Austria, Hungary etc due to some shared history, but there is still a much longer history of Germany identity that spans far further back than 1871. I would know, I'm half Austrian.

Yeah it does matter, it shows that nationalism is a much more modern concept than you're making it out to be.

This.

Last edited by Helloplite - on 02 May 2018

VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

Doesn't matter when it became an official unified nation. They obviously have strong ties to Austria, Hungary etc due to some shared history, but there is still a much longer history of Germany identity that spans far further back than 1871. I would know, I'm half Austrian.

Yeah it does matter, it shows that nationalism is a much more modern concept than you're making it out to be.

No, you equate nationalism to borders only. It has to do with a lot more. It has more to do with cultural heritage than borders. That's why Americans don't freak out about European immigrants the way they do about Mexican immigrants. It's not because they care about the arbitrary borders as much as they do about preserving cultural heritage which they equate with European settlers. Now in the case of the US, IMO that's misguided, because the country itself was founded on a multi cultural ideal. However for European/middle eastern/african nations it is reasonable to protect their heritage. 



black8jac said:
VGPolyglot said:

How would you lose your identity? Unless you base your entire identity on your nationality.

It's big part of our identity. As being born in European country I share most of the values of Christianity. That is despite being an atheist. If we try to diminish that values we expose ourselves to indoctrination of values of others maybe not as liberal as our cultures. We shouldn't, in my opinion, dilute our identity we should cherish and embrace it. 

I give you an example. In Europe, at the moment, there is a trend to invite and harbour people from Middle East. As much as noble it is, a big part of these people have no intention to integrate and at least respect our values. It is quite opposite, the core of their values is to indoctrinate others to their liking.

And you can give up nationalism while still living those lives. Just because I reject nationalism doesn't mean I'm going to give up maple syrup or watching hockey. Also, refugees from the Middle East have trouble integrating because they don't really have the opportunity to do so, when you can't find a job of course you're going to get resentful:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-refugees-jobs-employment-1.4466519



Helloplite said:
contestgamer said:

Someone says they have multi racial friends/relationships. You say they're racist. Amazing reading comprehension there. A+

And, to reiterate a point I made in a further clarifying edit:

 

Hitler's openings to Muslims, and Carl Schmitt's student being a Jew is the very equivalent of someone saying "I cannot be a racist, my gf/friends are mixed race". 

 

Denial is the first step to ignorance.

 

As I said. Reading comprehension. Master it, son.

Ah I see, so we're cherry picking what one person through human history said to make a point. There has NEVER been a non racist with a friend of another race right? lol cmon, you're a joke.



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contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

Yeah it does matter, it shows that nationalism is a much more modern concept than you're making it out to be.

No, you equate nationalism to borders only. It has to do with a lot more. It has more to do with cultural heritage than borders. That's why Americans don't freak out about European immigrants the way they do about Mexican immigrants. It's not because they care about the arbitrary borders as much as they do about preserving cultural heritage which they equate with European settlers. Now in the case of the US, IMO that's misguided, because the country itself was founded on a multi cultural ideal. However for European/middle eastern/african nations it is reasonable to protect their heritage. 

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.



VGPolyglot said:
black8jac said:

It's big part of our identity. As being born in European country I share most of the values of Christianity. That is despite being an atheist. If we try to diminish that values we expose ourselves to indoctrination of values of others maybe not as liberal as our cultures. We shouldn't, in my opinion, dilute our identity we should cherish and embrace it. 

I give you an example. In Europe, at the moment, there is a trend to invite and harbour people from Middle East. As much as noble it is, a big part of these people have no intention to integrate and at least respect our values. It is quite opposite, the core of their values is to indoctrinate others to their liking.

And you can give up nationalism while still living those lives. Just because I reject nationalism doesn't mean I'm going to give up maple syrup or watching hockey. Also, refugees from the Middle East have trouble integrating because they don't really have the opportunity to do so, when you can't find a job of course you're going to get resentful:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-refugees-jobs-employment-1.4466519

Canada =/= Europe there's no parallel. Canada has been multicultural from its inception. That is not European heritage. 



VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

No, you equate nationalism to borders only. It has to do with a lot more. It has more to do with cultural heritage than borders. That's why Americans don't freak out about European immigrants the way they do about Mexican immigrants. It's not because they care about the arbitrary borders as much as they do about preserving cultural heritage which they equate with European settlers. Now in the case of the US, IMO that's misguided, because the country itself was founded on a multi cultural ideal. However for European/middle eastern/african nations it is reasonable to protect their heritage. 

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.

Yeah but people don't identity with borders, they identify with cultural heritage. That's why you don't see a whole lot of German xenophobia targeting Austrians the way you do muslims.



SpokenTruth said:
VGPolyglot said:

Patriotism and nationalism are intrinsically linked.

True, but patriotism tends to have less overlap with xenophobia compared to nationalism. 

You can be a patriot and still respect other nations, cultures, ethnicities and welcome them into the country.  A nationalist generally proclaims a superiority over other nations and does not want any integration with foreigners.

There are some like that, mostly far right. I dont think any nation or group is superior to any other. They're just different. You respect other nations, but you don't just tear down your borders and allow everyone to flood in from them.



contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

And you can give up nationalism while still living those lives. Just because I reject nationalism doesn't mean I'm going to give up maple syrup or watching hockey. Also, refugees from the Middle East have trouble integrating because they don't really have the opportunity to do so, when you can't find a job of course you're going to get resentful:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-refugees-jobs-employment-1.4466519

Canada =/= Europe there's no parallel. Canada has been multicultural from its inception. That is not European heritage. 

No, it has not. Aboriginals couldn't even vote until 1960, there's the Chinese Immigration Act that racially motivated immigration, and they turned away Jewish refugees

contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.

Yeah but people don't identity with borders, they identify with cultural heritage. That's why you don't see a whole lot of German xenophobia targeting Austrians the way you do muslims.

And their cultural heritage is linked to that of a state.