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Forums - Politics Discussion - Brexiters OUTRAGED after discovering that voting to abolish free movement means movement will no longer be free

Helloplite said:
contestgamer said:

Someone says they have multi racial friends/relationships. You say they're racist. Amazing reading comprehension there. A+

And, to reiterate a point I made in a further clarifying edit:

 

Hitler's openings to Muslims, and Carl Schmitt's student being a Jew is the very equivalent of someone saying "I cannot be a racist, my gf/friends are mixed race". 

 

Denial is the first step to ignorance.

 

As I said. Reading comprehension. Master it, son.

Ah I see, so we're cherry picking what one person through human history said to make a point. There has NEVER been a non racist with a friend of another race right? lol cmon, you're a joke.



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contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

Yeah it does matter, it shows that nationalism is a much more modern concept than you're making it out to be.

No, you equate nationalism to borders only. It has to do with a lot more. It has more to do with cultural heritage than borders. That's why Americans don't freak out about European immigrants the way they do about Mexican immigrants. It's not because they care about the arbitrary borders as much as they do about preserving cultural heritage which they equate with European settlers. Now in the case of the US, IMO that's misguided, because the country itself was founded on a multi cultural ideal. However for European/middle eastern/african nations it is reasonable to protect their heritage. 

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.



VGPolyglot said:
black8jac said:

It's big part of our identity. As being born in European country I share most of the values of Christianity. That is despite being an atheist. If we try to diminish that values we expose ourselves to indoctrination of values of others maybe not as liberal as our cultures. We shouldn't, in my opinion, dilute our identity we should cherish and embrace it. 

I give you an example. In Europe, at the moment, there is a trend to invite and harbour people from Middle East. As much as noble it is, a big part of these people have no intention to integrate and at least respect our values. It is quite opposite, the core of their values is to indoctrinate others to their liking.

And you can give up nationalism while still living those lives. Just because I reject nationalism doesn't mean I'm going to give up maple syrup or watching hockey. Also, refugees from the Middle East have trouble integrating because they don't really have the opportunity to do so, when you can't find a job of course you're going to get resentful:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-refugees-jobs-employment-1.4466519

Canada =/= Europe there's no parallel. Canada has been multicultural from its inception. That is not European heritage. 



VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

No, you equate nationalism to borders only. It has to do with a lot more. It has more to do with cultural heritage than borders. That's why Americans don't freak out about European immigrants the way they do about Mexican immigrants. It's not because they care about the arbitrary borders as much as they do about preserving cultural heritage which they equate with European settlers. Now in the case of the US, IMO that's misguided, because the country itself was founded on a multi cultural ideal. However for European/middle eastern/african nations it is reasonable to protect their heritage. 

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.

Yeah but people don't identity with borders, they identify with cultural heritage. That's why you don't see a whole lot of German xenophobia targeting Austrians the way you do muslims.



VGPolyglot said:
SpokenTruth said:

That's a damn hard thing to do as they tend to overlap.  Also, don't confuse patriotism with nationalism.  Nationalism is like patriotism's bigoted brother.

Patriotism and nationalism are intrinsically linked.

True, but patriotism tends to have less overlap with xenophobia compared to nationalism. 

You can be a patriot and still respect other nations, cultures, ethnicities and welcome them into the country.  A nationalist generally proclaims a superiority over other nations and does not want any integration with foreigners.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

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SpokenTruth said:
VGPolyglot said:

Patriotism and nationalism are intrinsically linked.

True, but patriotism tends to have less overlap with xenophobia compared to nationalism. 

You can be a patriot and still respect other nations, cultures, ethnicities and welcome them into the country.  A nationalist generally proclaims a superiority over other nations and does not want any integration with foreigners.

There are some like that, mostly far right. I dont think any nation or group is superior to any other. They're just different. You respect other nations, but you don't just tear down your borders and allow everyone to flood in from them.



contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

And you can give up nationalism while still living those lives. Just because I reject nationalism doesn't mean I'm going to give up maple syrup or watching hockey. Also, refugees from the Middle East have trouble integrating because they don't really have the opportunity to do so, when you can't find a job of course you're going to get resentful:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-refugees-jobs-employment-1.4466519

Canada =/= Europe there's no parallel. Canada has been multicultural from its inception. That is not European heritage. 

No, it has not. Aboriginals couldn't even vote until 1960, there's the Chinese Immigration Act that racially motivated immigration, and they turned away Jewish refugees

contestgamer said:
VGPolyglot said:

A lot of it has to do with borders because of the modern-day nation states where the state claims to represent a specific nation. Borders are part of the function of a state.

Yeah but people don't identity with borders, they identify with cultural heritage. That's why you don't see a whole lot of German xenophobia targeting Austrians the way you do muslims.

And their cultural heritage is linked to that of a state.



VGPolyglot said:
contestgamer said:

Canada =/= Europe there's no parallel. Canada has been multicultural from its inception. That is not European heritage. 

No, it has not. Aboriginals couldn't even vote until 1960, there's the Chinese Immigration Act that racially motivated immigration, and they turned away Jewish refugees

contestgamer said:

Yeah but people don't identity with borders, they identify with cultural heritage. That's why you don't see a whole lot of German xenophobia targeting Austrians the way you do muslims.

And their cultural heritage is linked to that of a state.

 

That doesnt mean it wasnt multicultural. They were discriminated against, but the country still had many cultures of different races living under one border.

"And their cultural heritage is linked to that of a state."

Not necessarily, again, borders change throughout history all the time. Hungary lost a big chunk of their borders after WW2 to Romania. The Hungarians living now in Transylvania are still patriot hungarians evethough they live within Romanian borders. Language, culture matter more than borders.



black8jac said:
VGPolyglot said:

How would you lose your identity? Unless you base your entire identity on your nationality.

It's big part of our identity. As being born in European country I share most of the values of Christianity. That is despite being an atheist. If we try to diminish that values we expose ourselves to indoctrination of values of others maybe not as liberal as our cultures. We shouldn't, in my opinion, dilute our identity we should cherish and embrace it. 

I give you an example. In Europe, at the moment, there is a trend to invite and harbour people from Middle East. As much as noble it is, a big part of these people have no intention to integrate and at least respect our values. It is quite opposite, the core of their values is to indoctrinate others to their liking.

Identity preexists nationalism. No one says that identities did not exist prior to nationalism as an ideology. You can have an identity, without being a nationalist. You cannot be a nationalist, without having an identity. Nationalism is an ideology. It is not tautonymous with the concept of identity.

Identity is primordial, nationalism is a modern construct. They are not exactly apples and oranges, but more like using oranges to make marmalade.

I shall point out to you that probably every kind of social change and transformation was, due, at least in part, to a disagreement, or the emergence of something new and different that broke pre-existing patterns. Whether we speak of the emergence of the concept of citizen, through the collective struggles of all common peasants against the cultural hegemony of aristocracy; or the abolition of slavery and the emancipation of women, through the struggle to expand a previously limited definition of mankind and citizen respectively, sometimes dilution of ideology is not a bad thing at all.

 

I respect your concern about the impacts of multiculturalism on Identity, and I am not at all suggesting that the above process I explained is always beneficial and / or benign.

 



contestgamer said:
Helloplite said:

And, to reiterate a point I made in a further clarifying edit:

 

Hitler's openings to Muslims, and Carl Schmitt's student being a Jew is the very equivalent of someone saying "I cannot be a racist, my gf/friends are mixed race". 

 

Denial is the first step to ignorance.

 

As I said. Reading comprehension. Master it, son.

Ah I see, so we're cherry picking what one person through human history said to make a point. There has NEVER been a non racist with a friend of another race right? lol cmon, you're a joke.

Seriously now. Read what I am writing more carefully, or give this to a friend to read it for you. You are absolutely lost in limbo in this conversation. I've seen parrots being more sensible.